Carlsen: “Karjakin wants to become a martyr”

@Martas "For me this is far from valid defense of somebody who express support of war and uses same arguments as a reason for that (not even as an excuse)."

I don't know who that "somebody" is. If you refer to me, then you are of course not saying the truth, as I have expressed many times in this thread that I do not support the war. If you refer to Karjakin, then it is true that Karjakin supports his president and country in this war, even though you and I disagree. However, I separate tolerance from agreeing. I tolerate statements I do not agree with. So, I would not question Karjakin's right to freely express his views even though I disagree with him on many points.

"And regarding your rigid distinction between nationalists and nazis, you clearly try to separate these groups in case of Hungary and you feel very offended by any note which could possibly connect you to Jobbik with nazi past."

First of all, nazis and nationalists are not the same thing. Anyone not living in a cave knows this. Nazis are national-socialists, while nationalists can be liberals or conservative as well. This is true everywhere in the world, including Hungary or Ukraine. Secondly, I'm not being offended when you claim that Jobbik is a nazi part. I just detect that you are making an untrue statement and I'm explaining why you are wrong. If you say that 2+2 equals 5, I'm not offended. I explain why you are wrong instead. Thirdly, I have explained who the nazis in Hungary are. If you were an honest person, then you would understand that the nazi party is Mi Hazánk, while Jobbik is an ex-nazi party. This is the truth. If Jobbik would be nazi, I would acknowledge that. But they are leftist now, even though they claim to be conservative.

@Martas Jobbik was nazi in the past and they changed ideology. I'm making this statement as a factual and verifiable claim, not in their defense. When you say that I'm "defending" Jobbik you attempt to deceive other readers into thinking that my claim is not founded on reality, but on some intention to "defend" them. So, you lie about my intention, because you continue making that statement even after I clarified that my statement about them is factual. Also, your claim about me "defending" Jobbik does not even make sense, as I already pointed to a Hungarian nazi group, so I'm not trying to depict Hungary as a nazi-free country. You are a liar. You repetitively lie about me. You are asking what my problem is. I do not have a problem. You are a liar and a troll and I'm exposing you for what you are.

"However this is not sufficient to keep accusing them forever, like you do in every second comment."

They are using nazi symbols now. It's not five years ago. It is now. So, should I believe that a non-nazi group wears nazi symbols?

As usual, you ignore the most important sources. Like the USA not allowing them to train Americans because they are nazis. The wikipedia article also calls them "neo-nazis" in present tense. So, you ignore your main source of information when its main statement about the Azov batallion is that they are nazis. Is it a good feeling to whitewash nazis? Are you proud of yourself?

@SunriseK I'm not at all surprised that Arzi did not answer your direct question. Instead, he asked a counter question, even though there is a consensus here that Russia's main reason to start the war was probably geopolitics rather than the Ukrainian nazis. Also, nobody claimed that there are no nazis outside of Ukraine. Yet, Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine. I'm also not surprised that Martas was also not acknowledging that the Azov batallion is a nazi group. I maintain that any honest and informed person would acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group.

@Martas "trying to solve any nazi based question is in this context nothing more then providing excuse for the invasion or Karjakin."

We, commenters here are not trying to solve these issues. However, that does not stop SunriseK or myself in pointing out factually and honestly the existence of this problem. And of course, the existence of nazi groups in Ukraine does not validate the war and does not exempt Karjakin from bearing the consequences of what he says and does. Yet, I find his exclusion from the world championship candidates Orwellian and the setting of a dangerous precedent that will scare chess players away from expressing their views, whatever they might be.

"IMHO answer to your "most important" question requires much more research then you are able to do on your own."

I believe you that you are not able to do that research. But others are able. I have provided lots of factual proofs about Azov. You choose not to acknowledge it.

@lajosarpad : My first comment regarding Jobbik which you referred to - "lajosarpad limits this to progressive and socialist in order to exclude Jobbik" - this was not meant to connect you with Jobbik, it is just a fact that your lecture about etymology of word "nazi" pretty much fits to evolution of that party. It were your later comments due to which I used word "defense". And no matter how crazy you went because of this now, you did defend Jobbik afterwards.

Forgive me, I'm not a nationalist and not a fan of them, it sounds to me ugly if somebody tries to teach how to distinguish good and bad ones and tries to prove it with outdated and sometimes even false information. In case of distinguishing by conservative/socialist I'm a bit missing any information pointing to "socialist" aspect of Azov, so far it was only outdated emblem of Azov.
I have no problem with nationalists when they handle topics inside of their country and it's up to that country to handle them. However I see as a big problem when nationalists start interfering in other country and start fighting for their own interests. And in this case distinction between socialist and conservative looses it's relevance.

@lajosarpad : "Ukraine has a nazi problem indeed and Russia used it as an excuse for the invasion. I claim that it is not a valid reason to attack a country and possibly start WWIII"
Fair enough. If you agree something is not a valid reason for attacking the country, do you consider it as a valid reason for supporting such attack or accepting such support?

@lajosarpad : "This is Azov's emblem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg "
Your information is outdated for 7 years.

@lajosarpad: you called me a liar I expect due to my statement "I understand you would defend Jobbik " written on 5/16/2022 02:36. Besides the fact of using conditional "would" I was referring to your comments on the previous day where you have several times stated that Jobbik has a nazi past but it is nazi-free already (5/15/2022 04:45, 5/15/2022 04:26). What is your problem, nuances in english language or remembering or even understanding what you wrote???

Regarding Azov, we can agree on problematic history during the time when the squad was created, including their former leaders. However this is not sufficient to keep accusing them forever, like you do in every second comment. I took a time to go through your links to articles or videos I found a lot of blames about vandalism, incidents same as those of footbal hooligans, assumptions without proves. Worst case being labeling as murderer somebody who killed a person when defending himself against 2 guys trying to kill him and who left the court clean. For me this is far from valid defense of somebody who express support of war and uses same arguments as a reason for that (not even as an excuse).

And regarding your rigid distinction between nationalists and nazis, you clearly try to separate these groups in case of Hungary and you feel very offended by any note which could possibly connect you to Jobbik with nazi past. But in case of Ukraine in your eyes there is no difference, every sign of nationalism is for you a clear prove of being nazi. Fidesz is conservative, right? How conservative is recent Orban's note about loosing access to sea in context of discussing sanctions due to war?

@SunriseK: one more point to connection between Karjakin and Alekhine. For evaluating the support quite important is the context. Supporting Hitler 90 years ago could be considered as foolish, later you can excuse. Supporting Hitler in war time is considered as inexcusable, Alekhine payed the price for that. Same thing with Putin, once the war starts and becomes ugly, any such support can no longer be considered as foolish opinions.

@SunriseK : "So which are instead your opinions about Azov Battalion and the many other groups/people that I cited from wiki pages (Tryzub, RightSector, Dmytro Yarosh, Stepan Bandera)? Are they nazi extremists or not, according to you? This is the most important question IMHO! "

Bandera died 70 years ago, isn't it? I repeat what I mentioned here earlier, solving questions like this as a precondition for resolving the conflict means holding the longest conflict ever. In context of Karjakin the main problem is support of invasion, trying to solve any nazi based question is in this context nothing more then providing excuse for the invasion or Karjakin. IMHO answer to your "most important" question requires much more research then you are able to do on your own. I'm not a fan of any of those, but so I'm not a fan of any witchhunting.

SunriseK:"So which are instead your opinions about Azov Battalion and the many other groups/people that I cited from wiki pages (Tryzub, RightSector, Dmytro Yarosh, Stepan Bandera)? Are they nazi extremists or not, according to you?"

I’ll give you a counter-question instead of starting to google the names you enter. Do you think that this whole Ukraine WAR, not a special operation, has started because of Nazis in Ukraine? Do you think that Putin started this "special operation" to SAVE the Ukrainians from the clutches of Nazism? Do you think that there are, so called, Nazis ONLY in Ukraine? Any proof of that? What is your definition of the Nazi? Certain colour of the eyes and hairs, using leather boots and Nazi military caps, little Hitler -mustache? There are millions of people around the world, some call those men and women as heroes and others extreme terrorists or Nazis. Are the heroes really heroes and are the extreme terrorists really terrorists or ... Nazis? Turkey, for example, has defined critics of the head of state as terrorists. Are they really terrorists? Maybe they are also Nazis?

SunriseK"Ok, but I believe it doesn’t change anything: I wanted to point out the risk of going off-topic, no matter who is the one expressing his opinion, editor of Chessbase or Carlsen, as you correctly noticed (with your magnifier on)."

Of course it matters. You gave us the impression that Chessbase, as a company, is attacking against Karjakin when they actually just repeat the words of Magnus Carlsen in their interview. Truth matters and a little change in sentence may have a big difference.

Here is also an useful proverb for you to ponder: "When you point the finger at another person, usually at least three fingers of the same hand point at yourself."

@arzi: “Actually this page is: ‘Carlsen: Karjakin wants to become a martyr’. There is a difference between the two sentences. One sentence gives an idea of ​​what Chessbase’s editor think of Karjakin and the second sentence of a chess player’s opinion of Karjakin. Which do you think it is, SunriseK?”
Ok, but I believe it doesn’t change anything: I wanted to point out the risk of going off-topic, no matter who is the one expressing his opinion, editor of Chessbase or Carlsen, as you correctly noticed (with your magnifier on).
There is an useful proverb for you to ponder: “When the finger indicates the moon, you should look at the moon and not at the finger!” You are talking about the finger instead, :-)

@Martas: "Surprising how somebody can try to convince the world that main problems in Ukraine is Azov…"
And @arzi: “Nazis in Ukraine? What a joke.”
So which are instead your opinions about Azov Battalion and the many other groups/people that I cited from wiki pages (Tryzub, RightSector, Dmytro Yarosh, Stepan Bandera)? Are they nazi extremists or not, according to you?
This is the most important question IMHO!

@Arzi "Ukraine WAR, not a special operation like Putin wants it to be called as, was NOT because of some nazis in Ukraine."

Yes. The probable reason for the war is geopolitics, not the Azov batallion. I completely agree with you about that. But nevertheless, the Azov batallion is a nazi group. Supported by their government. Armed by the U.S. We have seen examples of terrorists being armed by the U.S. with the aim to bring down some dictators. The Islamic State is the result. Mark my words.

"Don’t be deaf and blind even if you’re constantly “in the voice,”"

Who said that the reason for the attack is the nazis? I explicitly said that it is not a valid reason for the invasion. Reread my comments if you do not remember. However, even though the invasion is egregious, it is an obvious and provable fact that there are powerful groups operating in Ukraine, backed by the government, who are nazis. They will become the European version of the ISIS.

ven though there is a relatively small nazi subculture. Yet, the Azov batallion openly uses nazi symbols and they are proud of that. I have shown a plethora of examples and verified sources about them. So it is pretty clear to any objective reader who is not particularly interested in supporting Ukrainian nazis that the Azov batallion is a nazi group which is sadly supported by the Ukrainian government as well.

@Arzi "This whole conversation is a BIG joke. You see nazis everywhere but you deny them in Hungary."

This is obviously a false statement, I do not see nazis everywhere. I only called the Azov batallion nazis, I did not even mention the Right Sector, which is also nazi, so I have made a pretty clear context about who the Ukrainian nazis are. There are nazis in Hungary, who vote for Mi Hazánk, another party where the leaders are nazis who are ex-members of Jobbik from the time when it was still a nazi party. Mi Hazánk is a Hungarian party, it operates in Hungary and I called them nazis. So, you are dishonest when you say that I deny there are nazis in Hungary. I am not. There are nazis in every country basically. Yet, in Ukraine they are powerful, armed and backed by the government. Do you claim that the members of the Azov batallion are not nazis?

So, either you acknowledge that Jobbik is no longer a nazi party and then you have rooted only for the leftist coalition which included an ex-nazi part, or, you maintain that Jobbik is a nazi party, in which case you were rooting for nazis in the election on the 3rd April.

@Martas "Shifting the topic to some troubles on Ukraine-Hungary borders is actually whataboutism."

Arzi brings in regularly Hungary into the discussion, with the aim to convince me not to speak about the nazi problem in Ukraine. I do not find it convincing at all. However, if we look back to the oldest comment that has mentioned Hungary, we find Arzi mentioning it. So, it was whataboutism indeed, in the classical sense. And who was the next person mentioning Hungary? It was you! So, it is hilarious that you call this a whataboutism. Technically you are right about this, but, it's "interesting" that you do so when you were the second person mentioning the topic. As about myself, maybe it is understandable that I react to what is being said about Hungary, even if it was an off-topic.

"Please don't be offended when people revert some of your arguments by showing you similar thing on the other side of that border, you defend your country with the same arguments which you want to avoid when being used in context of Ukraine."

That's completely false. I'm readily acknowledging that there are nazis in Hungary, I never (!) denied that. However, they are not FIDESZ or Jobbik voters. They are voters of Mi Hazánk. This is the reality about Hungarian nazis today. As about the Azov batallion, they are using nazi symbols to this day, while nazi symbols are not used by any relevant party in Hungary. This is Azov's emblem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg, a well-known nazi symbol called the "Wolfsangel" (https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/wolfsangel), which was used by the notorious 2nd SS "Das Reich" Panzer Division in WWII. Whoever is okay to be represented by that symbol is a nazi. So, the organization that has chosen that symbol has knowingly chosen to represent itself in nazi symbolism. So, the group, from its leaders down to its members are nazis.

@Martas "lajosarpad limits this to progressive and socialist in order to exclude Jobbik"

and the quote you have brought here was written on 5/17/2022 a month later, so, the quote that you have brought here from me did not exist when you have suggested this for the first time, which was therefore not even having the weak basis you rely upon now. Did you foresee my quote written on 5/17/2022 when you have written the above in 4/18/2022? Of course not. And, again, my quote was not in the defense of Jobbik, nor in the defense of Hungary. It was a mere factual statement since you and Arzi obviously have no clue about Hungarian politics, so I clarify the obvious mistakes.

"In fact in context of discussing Karjakin the whole discussion about nazi problem in Ukraine can be considered as whataboutism."

False. Karjakin had a tweet suggesting that there is a nazi problem in Ukraine (he did it in an oversimplified and quite primitive and naive way, but essentially it suggested that there is a nazi problem in Ukraine). In order to determine whether his given tweet has any connection to reality, we need to determine whether there is a nazi problem in Ukraine. As a result, this is on topic. He has not written about Hungary as far as I know, so Hungary is off topic.

"The core of the problem with Karjakin is that he supported russian invasion to Ukraine."

As far as I know we have a consensus that the invasion is bad and as a result, we disagree with Karjakin's support of the invasion. This is why we do not debate that: we agree about it.

"And the whole point of the "nazi" claims here is to defend him doing this."

No, he had a tweet which was suggesting that there is a nazi problem in Ukraine and showing nazi symbols of a military base (if I remember it correctly) his caption was "this is Ukraine". Which is an oversimplification of the situation and quite a primitive remark, yet, sadly there is a nazi issue in the country.

@Martas First of all, stating that Jobbik is no longer a nazi party is not a "defense" of that party, but a mere correction of Arzi's misunderstanding based on his superficial analysis on Hungarian politics. Was Stalin a nazi? No! Is this a defense of Stalin? Not at all. It is a mere factual statement. Is Kim Jong Un Hitler's son? No! Is this a defense of Kim Jong Un? Not at all. This is a mere factual statement. So, when I state that Jobbik is no longer a nazi party, then I'm not making that statement with the aim to defend them. I'm making that statement to correct some provenly mistaken statements from people who have no clue about Hungarian politics, but nevertheless they do a quick search and based on old articles, when Jobbik was still a nazi party, they make that statement. Yet, it is inaccurate. And I explain their mistakes. As a matter of fact, I assume that this was an honest mistake by Arzi, as I perfectly understand how it is possible that someone who has no understanding of Hungarian politics, does not speak the language and relies on a quick search might think that Jobbik is a nazi party. This is why I have explained to Arzi that Jobbik is no longer a nazi party.

I seriously dislike Jobbik and I would be the last person to defend them. So, when you say that I defend them, despite of the fact that I clarified that I'm not defending them, it is clear to me that you lie, probably your only reason for doing so is to provoke me.

Secondly, the first time when you suggested that I defend Jobbik was at 4/18/2022:

@Martas

You seem to believe that I'm angry. I'm not. I just have an attitude towards you as I usually have against proven trolls. You said that I defend Jobbik. Also you said that I have said that I agree with everything Karjakin has written/said. It is obvious to me that these statements are false and I exclude the possibility of an honest mistake on your part, hence, I treat you exactly like I treat other trolls. I'm not changing my attitude towards you until you acknowledge that:

- there was no reason to assume that I'm doing Russian propaganda
- your statement according to which I have said that I agree with everything Karjakin said/written was originated 100% in your fantasy
- your statement that I'm defending Jobbik is completely false as well
- refrain from similar misrepresentations of what I and others say in the future

At this point it is clear to me that you are trolling, so, if you discontinue writing, I'm okay with that. If you continue writing, then I will continue exposing you.

At least you have come up with a quote this time regarding your statement that I "defend" Jobbik.

"And when he has seen his trolling did not work, he brought in Jobbik as example for nazis. Yet, they are no longer nazis."

However, this is a complete misrepresentation of what I have said.

@lajosarpad: "We are speaking about Karjakin "wanting to become a martyr". That's a statement in the context of the Russo-Ukrainian war. So, the Azov battalion, the nazi group in Ukraine is on-topic. Speaking about Hungarian nazis is off-topic. It is a fallacy called whataboutism"

In fact in context of discussing Karjakin the whole discussion about nazi problem in Ukraine can be considered as whataboutism. The core of the problem with Karjakin is that he supported russian invasion to Ukraine. And the whole point of the "nazi" claims here is to defend him doing this. Shifting the topic to some troubles on Ukraine-Hungary borders is actually whataboutism. Please don't be offended when people revert some of your arguments by showing you similar thing on the other side of that border, you defend your country with the same arguments which you want to avoid when being used in context of Ukraine.

Lajosarpad:"It's not a joke. It is the truth. It is unethical to those who have to face daily terror to deny the fact that Ukraine has a nazi problem. Do you defend the Azov batallion like Martas does?"

This whole conversation is a BIG joke. You see nazis everywhere but you deny them in Hungary. This Ukraine WAR, not a special operation like Putin wants it to be called as, was NOT because of some nazis in Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is purely and simply because of Putin's immense lust for power and to regain the vast borders of the former tsarist empire and Soviet Russia. Those nazi bullshit talks are just a false cover-up for a real purpose. Russia wants to take over Ukraine. The fact that there are marginal numbers of Nazis in that country is a silly excuse. Russia should attack every country around the world with the same excuse, because there are "Nazis" everywhere, even in Finland, Russia, USA, Hungary...everywhere. Don’t be deaf and blind even if you’re constantly “in the voice,” lajosarpad.

@lajosarpad "I claim that you lie when you state that I "defend" Jobbik. Show me a quote where I defended Jobbik. "

"And when he has seen his trolling did not work, he brought in Jobbik as example for nazis. Yet, they are no longer nazis." 5/17/2022 01:14

If you think you are able to calm down, I don't mind following up with the discussion. This way it is pointless.

@arzi Ukraine has a nazi problem indeed and Russia used it as an excuse for the invasion. I claim that it is not a valid reason to attack a country and possibly start WWIII but I refuse to ignore the nazi problem in Ukraine. Denouncing this war should not mean that we blind ourselves to Ukraine's nazi problem. I claim that any decent person would be honestly acknowledging that Ukraine has a nazi problem and that Russia tries to justify its inexcusable invasion with this.

"Nazis in Ukraine? What a joke. Putin’s actions can be called a mixture of Nazism and Fascism, with a drop of Stalinism involved. "

It's not a joke. It is the truth. It is unethical to those who have to face daily terror to deny the fact that Ukraine has a nazi problem. Do you defend the Azov batallion like Martas does?

@Martas "you can get to paragraph about Jobbik brought by arzi some weeks ago, which you got so furious about."

I claim that you lie when you state that I "defend" Jobbik. Show me a quote where I "defended" Jobbik.

"You want to convince somebody about being objective? Just go on supporting "the truth" and "valid reasons for russian invasion"."

Another lie. I have been explicitly saying that the nazi problem in Ukraine does not validate the Russian invasion. It is pretty clear that you are a liar.

"There is no point to search in Karjakin's quotes to find something convincing you about anything."

You are chickening out from quoting Karjakin. My claim is that if you had an egregious quote from him, then you would have already shown it. Since you are always searching for reasons not to quote him, I conclude that you do not have anything.

"You clearly stated that you agree with all what he said/wrote."

You lie again. I clearly stated that I disagree with his support for the Russian invasion, which is already an example where I have disagreed with him.

"Oh, I actually agree there is a nazi problem in Ukraine. Main part of it is Russian Army."

You perfectly know that both SunriseK and I have spoken about Ukrainian nazis backed by the Ukrainian government. You are perverting the quote to be "clever".

Lajosarpad:"An example from this thread: Arzi brought in the off-topic of Hungarian nazis as an attempt to silence me about the Ukrainian nazi problem."

Actually no. Me trying to silence lajosarpad? Good idea but false belief, lajosarpad. You have written about this "nazi problem" so long that I just wonder have you lost the thread of your thoughts. Do you find nazis in everywhere, but not in Hungary? Or is this Führer democrazy in Hungary something you don`t want to think about or talk about? Yes, I do understand your hesitation on this issue.

The Nazis already existed before the original Nazi party was founded. They were only known by other names. There will be Nazis even though the original Nazis are already dead. They are found all over the world, even in a humane state like Hungary, even there. And don’t try to argue against that fact, lajosarpad.

Tell me, lajosarpad, is Putin fasisct, nazi or stalinist? He seems to admire Stalin, the great genocide that killed millions. Admittedly, Putin loves money, which is not necessarily the main goal of a true communist. He is more on the right-wing financier’s side than an ordinary worker. I would even see neonazism in his actions. To recognize a Nazi, he must also be a Nazi himself.

lajosarpad: "that your arguments against our position that there is a nazi problem in Ukraine are due to sheer lack of knowledge. "
Oh, I actually agree there is a nazi problem in Ukraine. Main part of it is Russian Army.

arzi: "There is a difference between the two sentences. One sentence gives an idea of ​​what Chessbase’s editor think of Karjakin and the second sentence of a chess player’s opinion of Karjakin. Which do you think it is, SunriseK? "

I assume chessbase editors play chess as well ;-)

@lajosarpad : "Those are sourced quotes."
Yes, and following those sources (some are books you have to buy) you can get to paragraph about Jobbik brought by arzi some weeks ago, which you got so furious about.

"One-sided? About what? About the Azov battalion? I'm on the side of the truth. The Azov batallion is a nazi group and I have the impression that you support them. They are dangerous to minorities, but they are also dangerous to Ukraine."
You want to convince somebody about being objective? Just go on supporting "the truth" and "valid reasons for russian invasion".

"I'm still waiting for the most egregious quote from Karjakin."
There is no point to search in Karjakin's quotes to find something convincing you about anything. You clearly stated that you agree with all what he said/wrote. I just wonder why you didn't write yet to Putin on your own.

SunriseK:"So, if you have some other interesting articles (from trustable fonts, like Wikipedia, of course), I will be happy to read them, even if I fear we are risking to shift a bit off-topic, as the title of this page is "Karjakin wants to become a martyr".

Actually this page is: Carlsen: "Karjakin wants to become a martyr". There is a difference between the two sentences. One sentence gives an idea of ​​what Chessbase’s editor think of Karjakin and the second sentence of a chess player’s opinion of Karjakin. Which do you think it is, SunriseK?

All this Ukrainian Nazi rubbish is just a cover for the real event. Russia decided to take over the territories belonging to Ukraine as early as 2014 by supporting pro-Russian rebels.

"One of the reasons for the crisis has been Russia's efforts to secure energy transport routes to the European market. Russia was particularly concerned about controlling gas pipelines through Ukraine to Central and Southern Europe. According to a document taken over by the Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta, Russia planned to capture Crimea and take over eastern Ukraine already under Yanukovych's rule in Ukraine. The memorandum, drawn up in early February 2014, talks about the partition of Ukraine and the annexation of eastern Ukraine to Russia. Among the authors of the memorandum is said to be Konstantin Malofeyev, a conservative-patriotic big businessman known to support the rebels.

Russian troops called volunteers with heavy weapons invaded eastern Ukraine to help distressed rebels at the end of August 2014. The rebels were advancing in many areas. The Ukrainian army suffered heavy losses and withdrew quickly. In September, Russians held the entire eastern Ukrainian Russian border behind the Luhansk-Mariupol line. The majority of Russian-speaking residents of eastern Ukraine living in the rebel area did not want to join Ukraine. Russia denied its involvement in hostilities.

Nazis in Ukraine? What a joke. Putin’s actions can be called a mixture of Nazism and Fascism, with a drop of Stalinism involved.

@Martas I'm still waiting for the most egregious quote from Karjakin. I know you have pointed us to google it, but it is your claim and it is your responsibility to back your claim with factual sources, assuming that you want your arguments to be taken seriously.

"SunriseK, do you feel entitled to ask people to stay silent? Or do you want to collect ton of "correct reading" for people to be allowed to express their opinion? "

To me it was clear that SunriseK was appealing to human decency, that is, if I do not know something, then I do not lecture others about it until I learn about it.

SunriseK has given you the benefit of the doubt (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20benefit%20of%20the%20doubt), that is, he assumes for the sake of decency and civil discourse that your arguments against our position that there is a nazi problem in Ukraine are due to sheer lack of knowledge.

Here I disagree with him, I think that with your statements you are no longer deserving the benefit of the doubt. I am also on the opinion that you are perfectly aware of Ukraine's nazi problem, but you try to whitewash it with fallacies and deception. And I'm convinced that even if you are unaware of how wrong you are about this, ignorance does not release you from the responsibility to search for the truth. This is why SunriseK and myself have a very different attitude towards you. In general I try to be an agreeable and likable fellow until one proves undeserving of that.

@Martas


"the article was enhanced with that neo-nazi labeling (5 days ago, overall few hundred updates in last days)."

Those are sourced quotes. Training in the U.S. was prevented for Azov because they are nazis. Israeli civil rights activists also condemn the Azov batallion as a nazi group. They are wearing nazi symbols. Their nazi ideology is so obviously true that I'm not even sure who you even want to convince about the contrary. Since you do not want to acknowledge this and you seem to be unwilling to scroll to the end of that wiki page for references, let me give you a few examples:

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-704680
https://theintercept.com/2022/02/18/ukraine-weapons-neo-nazis-bob-menendez/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/59nqmq/house-democrats-just-demanded-these-neo-nazi-groups-be-prosecuted-as-international-terrorists
https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-lifts-ban-on-funding-neo-Nazi-Ukrainian-militia-441884
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-06-12/ukraine-s-neo-nazis-won-t-get-u-s-money

Are Bloomberg, Jerusalem Post, Vice.com, The Intercep, Haaretz, The Hill, Al Jazeera, etc. all doing Russian propaganda? In view of the fact that many articles and sources were written years before the Russo-Ukrainian war, it would be a strange remark. Or, is everybody wrong from these sources, only you are right? Or, maybe, just maybe, is it possible that the sources are correct and you are wrong?

@Martas "You clearly misunderstood me. Seriously I liked that one, I found it balanced and I tried to give it as a proper example to lajosarpad due to one sided view of links which he considered as serious proofs."

One-sided? About what? About the Azov battalion? I'm on the side of the truth. The Azov batallion is a nazi group and I have the impression that you support them. They are dangerous to minorities, but they are also dangerous to Ukraine. Because, if president Zelensky loses a square inch from Ukraine in this war, then it is highly likely that a hundred thousand nazis will turn the weapons received from the U.S. towards Kiev and they are likely to try and exterminate minorities whenever they have an opportunity to do so. Do you support that? Is it wise or good to arm nazis with the best weapons? Things will end up as they ended up in Afghanistan, where now the Taliban have the most modern American weapons.

Why is Zelensky supporting them? Why can't he say that there is no place for nazi symbols and ideology in the Ukrainian effort for self-defense?

"Surprising how somebody can try to convince the world that main problems in Ukraine is Azov, way of Russian goverment is involved in Ukraine issues since Putin becoming prime minister/president is just completely ignored."

I do not know who claimed that, but I certainly didn't. My claim is that Ukraine has a nazi problem. I'm not caliming that Ukraine is a nazi state. It is not. I'm not claiming that the nazi issue in Ukraine is the biggest problem of the country. The Russian invasion - to name an example - is an even greater problem. But, even though there is an even more serious problem and the country itself is not a nazi country, the honest and decent position is that Ukraine has a nazi problem

@SunriseK I would not take Martas too seriously.

An example from this thread: Arzi brought in the off-topic of Hungarian nazis as an attempt to silence me about the Ukrainian nazi problem. He even called the Hungarian government, FIDESZ a nazi party. Since it has a conservative ideology, I explained the difference between conservative and national-socialist. And when he has seen his trolling did not work, he brought in Jobbik as example for nazis. Yet, they are no longer nazis. Mi Hazánk is the nazi party in Hungary.

And then, out of the blue, Martas claimed that I'm "defending" Jobbik, an opposition party which has a nazi past and now it's leftist. He made that claim ignoring the fact that I did not even mention Jobbik in this thread up until a few days ago.

So, don't be too worried about Martas or Arzi. I respect their freedom of speech, even though their comments are not of high caliber, to put it mildly.

@SunriseK: "In particular, it's obvious that Azov Battalion is a neo-nazi formation (wikipedia blatantly states that, on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion) which (incredibly!) is supported by the Ministry for Internal Affairs of Ukraine"

A lot of interesting reading is history of that page in wiki, you could find when the article was enhanced with that neo-nazi labeling (5 days ago, overall few hundred updates in last days). Maybe an interesting point to consider even in that version is time when Azov was found, some months after Crimea occupation and DNR/DLR . Surprising how somebody can try to convince the world that main problems in Ukraine is Azov, way of Russian goverment is involved in Ukraine issues since Putin becoming prime minister/president is just completely ignored.

"while instead they should stay silent, for the sake of decency, at least until they are correctly informed"
SunriseK, do you feel entitled to ask people to stay silent? Or do you want to collect ton of "correct reading" for people to be allowed to express their opinion?

@SunriseK: "in my post of 4/19/2022 10:28, which I still can't understand why you find it not balanced"
You clearly misunderstood me. Seriously I liked that one, I found it balanced and I tried to give it as a proper example to lajosarpad due to one sided view of links which he considered as serious proofs.
Karjakin's statements can be explained many different ways, "foolish statements" and "propaganda leading to genocide" are 2 extreme options. You gave a lot of material and great defense, you just need to accept that many people would not agree with you, FIDE folks included. Some weeks ago I've posted here a link to RIA novosti, not sure whether it's still valid and not changed, but it was an interesting reading about Putin's denazification opinions, which Karjakin tried to promote in chess community.
Same way you can get different opinions about Alekhine and canceled invitation - nazi collaborator, great chess player, or anti-bolshevik. In the end decision is done in a small closed group which has to consider all aspects.

@lajosarpad: thanks for your appreciation!
And about neonazism in Ukraine, it seems to me unbelievable if some people don't agree it exists and is even supported by actual Ukrainian Government (to some extent, which should be further analyzed, but that is certainly not negligible at all!) .
In particular, it's obvious that Azov Battalion is a neo-nazi formation (wikipedia blatantly states that, on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion) which (incredibly!) is supported by the Ministry for Internal Affairs of Ukraine, being part of the National Guard of Ukraine! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine). And, on my O(2) post, I already cited Tryzub (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryzub_(organization) ), Right_Sector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector) and Dmytro_Yarosh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmytro_Yarosh). About the latter I cited, among other things, that “Yarosh calls himself a follower of Stepan Bandera“ (Bandera was a nazi ukrainian criminal, collaborator of Hitler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera) and that “On November 2, 2021, Yarosh said on social media he had been appointed Adviser to the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valerii Zaluzhnyi. In response to a (December 2021) request by Ukrayinska Pravda, the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine refused to disclose details of its alleged cooperation with Yarosh citing the confidentiality of the information requested”!!!
So why is there even debate? It should be enough for any sentient human being to just carefully read those wiki pages! :-)
But probably, some people have not the patience to do that; though they are still wanting to do remarks, before properly acknowledging the pure facts... while instead they should stay silent, for the sake of decency, at least until they are correctly informed.

@Martas (part 2): About Alekhine, it's a very complicated matter which many historians are still debating. Apart the fact that Alekhine’s speeches were clearly racist and fully against Human Rights Declarations (and a lot of other laws), so there is not even confrontation with Karjakin's speeches, but it's very probable that Alekhine was forced to write them or even they were later redacted by some nazi officer to transform them in anti - Jewish propaganda.
About Odessa clashes, I didn't use such wikipedia's webpage (so, thank you for the interesting link!) but some other more generical webpages. And I talked only about Odessa's events because my declared intention was only to comment Karjakin's words (as they were appearing on EDC document); of course I agree with you that to reach the truth (if possible) one has to consider all the relevant events and clashes from both sides. So, if you have some other interesting articles (from trustable fonts, like Wikipedia, of course), I will be happy to read them, even if I fear we are risking to shift a bit off-topic, as the title of this page is "Karjakin wants to become a martyr".
Anyway, I already said there were "crimes from both sides" (on my post of 4/19/2022 10:28, which I still can't understand why you find it not balanced) and "About the genocide, I believe that probably there have been some genocides on both sides, like in all similar situations in the history." (2 minutes before the cited post).
So, sorry, but frankly I can't fully grasp which are your objections to my posts.

@Martas (part 1): "Karjakin expressed full support to Russian invasion", yes of course.
It's already cited in the EDC document (upon which I based my April's series of posts) and moreover lately I was finally able to get an english translation of Karjakin's letter to Putin, thanks to a friend who understands Russian language. I read it carefully and I confirm my previous opinion: it's a letter full of naive and blind patriotic statements, but just... plain opinions; nothing against art 29/2 of Human Rights Declaration nor against art. 10 of European Convention on Human Rights (please, read carefully EDC document from FIDE as well as the cited articles of Human Rights Declaration and European Convention on Human Rights, if you haven't already done that, before possibly replying to this post) and thus nothing like "propaganda leading to genocide".
If Karjakin's speech should be regarded as illegal, then... at least 95% of human beings should also be investigated for their speeches, including many comments on this webpage, LOL!

@lajosarpad : "You should have had the decency to not put words into my mouth. I did not bring up Jobbik to this discussion, so you cannot know my opinion about them, hence your claim is baseless and of ill faith. To clarify, Jobbik has a nazi past, but in 2018 they transformed into a leftist party."
I'm probably a bit lost in politology, but I somehow consider conservative to be more on the right side and socialist to be more on the left side, so I would conclude transformation from nazi to conservative (your earlier claim about Jobbik) to be more towards right then left.
I know Jobbik topic is from arzi. I have followed it as a great opportunity to soften the discussion about searching excuses for inexcusable behavior of Russian president and his followers. Couple of arguments given in a wrong context (ongoing war), similar to https://www.total-croatia-news.com/politics/62730-viktor-orban

@lajosarpad - nazi accusations of Azov and Jobbik have the same basis, both are about individuals historically connected to Azov/Jobbik. And in both cases you can find argumentation rejecting the theory, I understand you would defend Jobbik while you don't care about arguments defending Azov, they were discussed here as well. All sounds as odd philosophical discussion, until you realize how easy it is to accuse anybody like this and use it as an excuse to start the war - https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-lawmaker-poland-next-in-line-denazification-after-ukraine

Regarding your proofs regarding convicting criminal : "Sternenko was the target of three assassination attempts.[2] In 2018, he became visible in the media after the third attempt. It is believed that the "manhunt" was organized by supporters of Anti-maidan and their sympathizers. During the self-defence, one of the two attackers died and the second fled abroad." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serhii_Sternenko
You so much enjoy balanced view of SunriseK, I'd suggest you to check his comment from 4/19/2022 10:28.
It's all common childish game with older brother provoking younger one and then punishing his reaction, every family with 2 brothers knows this.