Carlsen: “Karjakin wants to become a martyr”

by ChessBase
4/6/2022 – In an interview for the Norwegian newspaper VG, Magnus Carlsen talked about the recent developments involving Sergey Karjakin. The world champion clearly stated that he disagrees with his colleague’s stance, but also noted that he is not sure whether banning him from official tournaments was the right decision. | Photo: Albert Silver

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“I don’t know if it’s good or not”

Read the full article at VG.no

A number of players have already shared their opinions regarding FIDE’s decision to ban Sergey Karjakin for six months, which will likely prevent the Russian from participating in the Candidates Tournament (pending a potential appeal).

Although all condemn the Russian’s stance on the invasion, some, like Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, doubt whether banning Karjakin was the right decision. Others, like Wesley So, fully agree with the decision, while Daniil Dubov considers FIDE’s decision to be illogical — according to him, they should either not ban him at all or ban him for much longer.

Magnus Carlsen, the reigning world champion, had not talked much about the subject. In an interview for the Norwegian newspaper VG, Carlsen clearly stated that he disagrees with his colleague’s stance, but also noted that he is not sure whether banning him from official tournaments was the right decision.

Many Russians who previously either openly supported Putin or did not talk much about it have chosen to alter their views and now state that Putin has gone too far. Karjakin has gone the other way. He has increased his support for Putin. That type of attitude cannot be accepted.

[...] Of course, I do not agree with Karjakin on anything, but whether it is right to exclude people for opinions that we do not tolerate, I’m not sure. Maybe it pays off in a difficult time, but you also set a precedent for what may come later.

[...] Is it good that we are letting him have what he wants? He wants to become a martyr of the West’s “sanctions tyranny”. Now he is allowed to tell that story at home — and that works well there. We are helping him in doing so, we are letting him have what he wants. I don’t know if it’s good or not, I’m not sure.

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arzi arzi 5 hours ago
By the way Liar-Lajosarpad, nazi problems never die as long as there is a single nazi alive in everywhere. Even if there is only one nazi in Hungary, they have a serious nazi issue in Hungary.

Hungary 10 million people and one nazi is 0,00001 %.
Hungary 10 million people and 500 nazis is 0,005 %.
Hungary 10 million people and 50 000 nazis 0,5%.

If we look at those numbers in percentage they seem to be so small and still even one nazi is a serious issue, right?
arzi arzi 5 hours ago
lajosarpad:"Whenever Ukraine's nazi issue was brought into the discussion, you tried to shift the topic to Hungary, you called it a joke and lately you avoided answering SunriseK's simple question about this very topic and "responded" with a counter-question. It is possible that you acknowledged that there is a serious nazi issue in Ukraine in the form of the Azov batallion and other groups and I just didn't see it. In that case I will publicly acknowledge that I was wrong about that. But, in order to do so, please answer two simple questions with a yes or a no (you can add an explanation if you want, but an obvious yes or an obvious no is absolutely needed if you want me to acknowledge that I was wrong about you):

1. Do you acknowledge that Ukraine has a serious nazi issue?
2. Do you acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group?"

Lajosarpad, you accuse others of lying. Now you made a FALSE statement about me and I asked you if it was accidentally or intention. You didn't tell me your answer, so you're according to your own rules, LIAR. I will call you a liar until you give me an answer. Was the sentence you made of accidental or intentional.

1. Serious, I don`t know. Probably no. Russia did not attack Ukraine because of the Nazis in Ukraine.
2. Acknowledge, Azov batallion is a nazi group? I don`t know. How many are there in Azov batallion? 50 million Ukrainian Nazis? 50 000? 500? Russia did not attack Ukraine because of Azov batallion.

Can you prove, Liar-Lajosarpad, that Russia attacked Ukraine because of nazi problems and because of Azov batallion?
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 01:03
"My proposal for everyone is to say the truth." - lajosarpad
"if they hadn't taken it away from us, we would also have a port" - Vktor Orban
"The statement aimed to point out the cynicism of the leaders of these countries" - lajosarpad

Orban's statement is a good case of truth accompanied with weird intentions. And it obviously managed to hit it's target at home, it's hard to hide sentiment and anger raised by that statement. You obviously believe keeping business with Russia is the best option or even the only valid option. I'd say it's too early to conclude anything about sanctions at the moment, we'll see in few years.
Meanwhile you can keep trying to convince the world about what is the "most important", even when it is - as a matter of fact - main narrative used by Russian goverment and pro-russian trolls to provide reasoning for all Russian crimes in Ukraine.
And maybe at least time to time you could try to deal with truth from the other side, ie that Azov Batalion was created after Russian army invaded Crimea, Doneck and Luhansk (you might consider as well direct lies of Putin about no presence of Russian army in Ukraine). Which pretty much validates all effort of Azov Batalion defending it's country, no matter what you thing about it. Putin provided main support of PR of Azov Batalion both in good and bad sense.
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 01:00
@lajosarpad: "I believe you that you are not able to do that research. But others are able. I have provided lots of factual proofs about Azov. You choose not to acknowledge it."
"You know perfectly well that a plethora of sourced quotes were shared here already, so it is quite obvious that the arguments were not limited to their logo."

You have provided plethora of sources containing obviously false accusation, couple of incidents (in some cases connection with Azov is unclear) which at very best show signs of nationalizm, not nacism. And you provided links where you rely on opinion of others, without understanding what is the basis. So yes, your argumentation was not limited to their logo, however validity of the rest is let's say questionable.
And even for the logo you provided outdated version where connection to nazis was much clearer (direct copy of black sun, while wolfsangel Z is reversed, differently oriented and struck differently). When I pointed you to your mistake, you were not even able to accept it.

"As usual, you ignore the most important sources. Like the USA not allowing them to train Americans because they are nazis."
Who do you think trained these guys so that they managed to hold against huge odds for such a long time?
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 12:59
@lajosarpad: "And of course, the existence of nazi groups in Ukraine does not validate the war and does not exempt Karjakin from bearing the consequences of what he says and does." 5/19/2022 06:54

It took several weeks until you managed to admit that Karjakin's opinions might validate some consequences.

"Supporting Russia or the president is not a call for violence, nor for crime, even if we consider Russia's actions to be containing war crimes." 4/9/2022 01:20

No matter how ridiculous this statement is, I have expected you are capable of understanding flaws in your thinking. With your repeated claims of lying, trolling etc I lost that hope. The rest I take as a try to find out how far you able to get with your conclusions.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/21/2022 07:22
@Martas "so in other words it's all fault Ukraine, they should excuse for being attacked and prosecute it's own army, no matter that main war crimes were commit by Russians"

Nobody said that.

"Most important is your truth about nazis."

It's not "my" truth. Truth is objective and it is often verifiable. The Azov batallion is a verifiably nazi group. They commit atrocities (see https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/03/05/200-buried-alive-azov-brigades-reign-of-terror-in-ukrainian-civilian-hostages-in-mariupol/) wear nazi symbols (see https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3e6mNVCcAAYBBB.jpg) and act exactly like nazis (see https://media-en.almayadeen.net/archive/image/2022/4/9/6190df5d-6564-4abd-bb3a-008e1cf3e65d.jpg?v=3).

So, the Azov batallion is a nazi group, independently of whether you ever acknowledge that.

This of course does not validate the Russian invasion, the agressor here is Russia, obviously. Yet, it is quite a primitive and intellectually dishonest position to whitewash nazis.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 06:14
L.Á. "Yet, Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."
@Arzi "Lajosarpad, you seem to use the words, "lie/liar" quite often against other people and still you don`t notice that same in yourself. Is your sentence, above, a lie and are you a liar or did you do that just accidentally?"

Whenever Ukraine's nazi issue was brought into the discussion, you tried to shift the topic to Hungary, you called it a joke and lately you avoided answering SunriseK's simple question about this very topic and "responded" with a counter-question. It is possible that you acknowledged that there is a serious nazi issue in Ukraine in the form of the Azov batallion and other groups and I just didn't see it. In that case I will publicly acknowledge that I was wrong about that. But, in order to do so, please answer two simple questions with a yes or a no (you can add an explanation if you want, but an obvious yes or an obvious no is absolutely needed if you want me to acknowledge that I was wrong about you):

1. Do you acknowledge that Ukraine has a serious nazi issue?
2. Do you acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group?
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 06:12
@lajosarpad : so in other words it's all fault Ukraine, they should excuse for being attacked and prosecute it's own army, no matter that main war crimes were commit by Russians. Most important is your truth about nazis.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 06:09
@Martas Those people are free to form that political opinion. Anti-nationalism is a large international movement. When I'm saying that someone is not a nazi, I'm not doing it to defend him/her. It is a factual statement. Russian communists using red flags and founding people's republics are part of the radical left. They are obviously not nazis, nevertheless they have attacked Ukraine. Also, there are Russian nationalists who are not necessarily nazis, who are also attacking Ukraine. So, nazi is a very specific word with a concrete meaning. It is correct to call someone a "nazi" if and only if that's accurate. If the person is a non-nazi nationalist or a non-nazi socialist, then it is inaccurate to say that he is a nazi even if he is worse than a nazi. Nazi is not synonymous with "good" or "bad". It is a political ideology which has a history of extermination and conquest. But it is not the only ideology leading to extremism.

As about my accusations: you have claimed that I said that I agree with everything Karjakin says. Since I tend to evaluate every thought separately, I would never say that I agree with someone on "everything". You know it was a false statement and you knew it was a false statement at the time of its writing as well. So it is a logical consequence that first I raise objections to it and if you maintain that statement, then I treat you like I treat trolls. That's also true about the statement according to which I "defended" Jobbik. You yourself said that some groups are worse than nazis. Jobbik is such a group, without a backbone, licking the boot of others, betraying their allies regularly and constantly lying. Nazis are extremists, but at least they tend to be honest. So, Jobbik, which pretended to be nazi and then pretended to be conservative while serving the left is a party which has no honor. So, when I identify them as an ex-nazi party, I'm not saying that in their defense. I'm saying that with the aim to clarify an inaccuracy.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 06:04
@Martas "If all argumentation is down to azov logo, then what is your proposal?"

You know perfectly well that a plethora of sourced quotes were shared here already, so it is quite obvious that the arguments were not limited to their logo. Why do you use a false statement as your premise? My proposal for everyone is to say the truth. The Azov batallion is a nazi group. No need to whitewash it.

"Or do you want to say that Azov batalion should not be allowed to defend it's country and should immediately give up?"

I believe that the Ukrainian political leadership could easily solve this problem if they wanted. They could tell the Azov members that they are not allowed to use nazi symbols, because they shame the Ukrainian effort for self-defense. Also, if there were war crimes by members of the Azov batallion, then Ukraine could prosecute them.

"What is the aim of all that witch-hunting?"

Calling a spade a "spade" is not witch-hunting.

"But it brings some light to some of your argumentation regarding problems of Hungarian minority in Ukraine."

You can think what you want about me. That will not change my opinion that oppressing Hungarian, Romanian, Polish, Ruthenian and Russian minorities for not being Ukrainians is unnecessary and wrong.

"in eyes of many people non-socialist nationalists can be much worse then nazis"
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 03:47
@lajosarpad : "And of course, the existence of nazi groups in Ukraine does not validate the war and does not exempt Karjakin from bearing the consequences of what he says and does. Yet, I find his exclusion from the world championship candidates Orwellian"
Ok, this statement I find as a fair outcome. I believe that in many years when the conflict is solved people will be sad about excluding Karjakin, similar as they are now about Alekhine.
I don't mind you representing view and interests of your country. So I don't take personally your accusations, in the end your words tell much more about your perception of world then about myself.
Regarding our disagreement in nazi/nationalist topic, in eyes of many people non-socialist nationalists can be much worse then nazis, Russia is giving proof of this time to time. I wish you and your country not to be seen this way.
arzi arzi 5/20/2022 01:34
Lajosarpad:"Yet, Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."

Lajosarpad, you seem to use the words, "lie/liar" quite often against other people and still you don`t notice that same in yourself. Is your sentence, above, a lie and are you a liar or did you do that just accidentally?
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 12:35
@lajosarpad: "The statement aimed to point out the cynicism of the leaders of these countries, which were taking part of the dismemberment of Hungary"
I'm not going to express my thoughts about using word cynicism in this context. But it brings some light to some of your argumentation regarding problems of Hungarian minority in Ukraine. As well as to your separation between nationalists and nazis, no matter how correct it is from linguistics point of view.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 10:20
@lajosarpad : If all argumentation is down to azov logo, then what is your proposal?
Change the logo and all is fine? You could ask russian army to let azov folks go home, change uniform and then come back and follow up fighting, I don't believe it would work out.
Or do you want to say that Azov batalion should not be allowed to defend it's country and should immediately give up? Or should all members commit suicide and the world will be better?
What is the aim of all that witch-hunting?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 09:57
@Martas

Wolfsangel: https://w7.pngwing.com/pngs/356/719/png-transparent-ukraine-wolfsangel-azov-battalion-all-ukrainian-union-svoboda-symbol-symbol-ukraine-wolfsangel-azov-battalion.png
Azov emblem: https://cdn-japantimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/np_file_149391.jpeg

It is the same thing!

The Russian Z symbol is https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2022/03/09/ap22058740748734_custom-87743d93aca301f7caed9336987b859694566d54.jpg

and it is a different symbol, since the Z is not crossed. If you would want to point to extremism on the Russian side, then the red stars on their aircrafts and the red flags in the hands of their soldiers as well as the "people's democratic republics" are also extremist symbols. They are communist symbols. You are welcome!

"In general this is really poor argumentation for neverending shouting regarding Azov and Nazi."

Is it neverending? Then why is the Azov batallion not changing its emblem to something non-nazi? Why are they okay wearing nazi symbols?

https://images.unian.net/photos/2019_10/1571633211-1782.jpg?0.11160926184354203
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 09:56
@lajosarpad : problem of logo is that everybody sees there what he wants to see. As far as I know, main problem with the old logo was nazi's black sun, which the new logo doesn't have. Regarding similarity with wolfsangel logo, I think Russian's 'Z' symbol is a bit closer to it.
Do you want to follow russian logic that jewish people are antisemitists? There are logo similarities of the same character.
In general this is really poor argumentation for neverending shouting regarding Azov and Nazi.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 09:54
lajosarpad : "Is this a false statement? I think this is a perfectly accurate statement"
No, it's not a false statement. But it has many interpretations, some of them could be really ugly. Potentially when nationalistic part of National-conservative thinking wins against conservative part.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 09:46
@Martas

"there is no simple yes/no, maybe for you or lajosarpad."

Yes, there is. The Azov batallion is either a nazi group or not. Since you were arguing against them being nazis, it is clear that your position is that they are not nazis and you side with them. "Nazi" is a well-defined word. All one has to do in order to determine whether a group is nazi is to check the main attributes. Are they wearing nazi symbols? Yes! It is in their official emblem. So it is clear to anyone that they are nazis.

"- Azov Batalion - part of Ukrainian army which tries to deny all connections to Azov Movement. "

But their current emblem is still a nazi symbol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg

"Regarding current Azov batalion and relation to nazi-thinking, this is really hard to asses, you would need to be able to read mind of those people."

You can look at the symbols they are wearing. They are wearing a nazi symbol as their official emblem.

It is difficult to grasp why you are not acknowledging the obvious fact that the Azov batallion is a nazi group. The vast majority of the Ukrainian defensive forces are patriots who defend their country. But this one -Azov- is a nazi group. https://cdn-japantimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/np_file_149391.jpeg

It is unnecessary to act blindly about this, since this fact does not validate the invasion and Russia is still the aggressor.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 09:32
@Martas it was not meant to be a territorial claim. It was a statement that aimed to be an argument against the sanctions, outlining that

1. Hungary has to solve some real problems if this sanction packet passes
2. The problems Hungary has to solve were caused by the very countries that are now trying to push Hungary into this problem (France, Britain, Italy, USA, Belgium, Poland, Romania, the former Yugoslavia and the former Czehoslovakia)

The statement aimed to point out the cynicism of the leaders of these countries, which were taking part of the dismemberment of Hungary and now act as if they would not understand why Hungary objects the current sanctions.

I'm convinced that Hungary is not going to attack Croatia.

"if they hadn't taken it away from us, we would also have a port" O.V.

Is this a false statement? I think this is a perfectly accurate statement.

The Hungarian Prime Minister represents Hungarian interests. Since the proposed sanction is opposing Hungarian interests, the Hungarian Prime Minister argues against it.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 09:26
@SunriseK: there is no simple yes/no, maybe for you or lajosarpad.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm aware of problematic history of Azov, including their founders and former leaders, Azov movement and Azov Batallion being one group at that point. When Azov Batallion became part of Ukrainian army, those 2 split.
- Azov Movement - neonazi group with marginal support (less then 2%) in last elections. Former leaders and founders of Azov Batallion (Azov veterans) are part of it.
- Azov Batalion - part of Ukrainian army which tries to deny all connections to Azov Movement.

I'm not going to write much about Azov Movement, as a political party they have marginal support, similar to neo-nazi parties in other countries.
Regarding current Azov batalion and relation to nazi-thinking, this is really hard to asses, you would need to be able to read mind of those people. I accept there might be problem with individuals, similar to such problem in other armies, especially the Russian one and reportedly those of DNR/DLR.

Overall as I mentioned earlier, I agree there is nazi problem in Ukraine, however I see Russian army being main part of it.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 08:44
@lajosarpad : I completely understand Hungarian needs and problems with loosing russian gas, Hungary is not alone with these problems, also Hungary is not the only EU country without access to the sea.
You completely missed point of my question and answered something different. You should be aware of Croatian protests against Orban's note about sea, as it is as a matter of fact also territorial claim with nationalistic sentiment as Hungary lost that territory 100 years ago. And it was done in direct connection to Ukraine conflict where Russia occupies territory which it lost 20 years ago.
"if they hadn't taken it away from us, we would also have a port" - Vktor Orban
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 02:38
@Martas However, there are two large problems with that. First, such a project would involve an infrastructural change that takes 3-5 years to be completed and in the meantime we need Russian gas, so an embargo on oil and gas on Russia starting from tomorrow would cause humanitarian catastrophe in our country. Second, there are huge costs in completing this project. Who is going to pay for it? Hungarian tax payers? But that would mean that a Hungarian problem is created by Brussels without offering a solution. The West has a history of creating Hungarian problems and we are simply not interested in it.

By the way: Russia clearly did not collapse under the sanctions so far and the energy embargo that the west wants to force everyone to comply to would result in Russia selling its resources to China and India. Russia would also feel the sanctions, true, but Europe would be in massive trouble as a result. It is difficult to understand why are sanctions proposed in the energy sector that would hurt Europe more than Russia. There were other, more sensible sanctions proposed and EU countries voted those sanctions. But the energy sector's embargo would spell tragedy in Europe.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 02:38
@Martas I forgot to answer your question: "How conservative is recent Orban's note about loosing access to sea in context of discussing sanctions due to war?"

Conservativism is an ideology, while national interests are very concrete. The realm of national interest is largely determined by complex calculations being done by specialists of different fields. If we cannot buy Russian gas and oil, then the effects of this policy can be calculated and forecasted by specialists.

This is not an abstract ideological remark. The reality is very physical. We either have oil and gas or not. If we have no access to these resources, then we are facing a humanitarian and monetary catastrophe in our country, which is unacceptable. So, it is an imperative to have access to these resources. Currently we import oil and gas from Russia. The EU wants to convince us to stop doing so. However, if we are not to buy Russian gas and oil, then where would we obtain it from? We do not have sources of these resources in our country and we do not have access to seas either in order to import them (since 4th of June, when the west decided to distribute 66% of our country between our neighbors, for which we will be "grateful" forever). As a result, if we are not to buy Russian gas, then we need to build another pipe in order to import oil and gas from other sources.
SunriseK SunriseK 5/20/2022 12:40
@arzi: I asked you a very simple thing that could be summarized like this: are there neonazis groups in Ukraine or not? Instead of answering, you said "I’ll give you a counter-question instead of starting to google the names you enter."
No, this is not the correct way a fair person would talk! I gave you a simple question, which can be answered just with "Yes" or "No". Some posts before, you said “Nazis in Ukraine? What a joke.”, so you should already have an opinion about my question, without needing at all to google anything. Then first give your simple answer to my simple question and after that I could consider your "counter-question" or anything else from you.
And about fingers... you are clearly showing that you didn't understand my proverb at all, because you are insisting to tell not relevant things about the title of this thread.

@Martas: you said "solving questions like this as a precondition for resolving the conflict means holding the longest conflict ever" and "answer to your 'most important' question requires much more research then you are able to do on your own".
So, like arzi, you are refusing to answer a very simple question: are there neonazi groups in Ukraine or not?
No research need to be done, you have just to tell your personal opinion with "Yes" or "No". For example, even more simpler question: is Azov Battalion a neonazi group or not? Yes or no? And you already did tesearches about that wikipedia page, so you have no need to do anything else, just your simple opinion, without hiding behind ridiculous excuses (which are also much longer than "Yes" or "No", LOL!).
And btw, I don't think at all that possible existence of neonazis in Ukraine could be an excuse for an invasion! ;-)
I just want to understand if you (and arzi) are considering Azov Battalion (and possibly other groups/people that I cited) a neonazi group or not. Both of you talked really a 'book' about Karjakin and now you are unable to give a simple "Yes" or "No"??? :-D
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 07:55
@lajosarpad "Who said that the reason for the attack is the nazis?"
Putin did, his propaganda did. And so was the reasoning of Karjakin.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:56
@Martas "And no matter how crazy you went because of this now, you did defend Jobbik afterwards."

Again, this is a lie. I am saying they are no longer nazis because that is the truth, not because I would want to defend them. You lie. The sky is blue. The grass is green. Water is liquid. And Martas lies.

"so far it was only outdated emblem of Azov."

Yes, I have shared an outdated emblem initially. This is the current one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg

they have kept the Wolfsangel. They have changed their logo from Wolfsangel to Wolfsangel. Maybe when you stated that they have changed their emblem you could have also mentioned that they kept the Wolfsangel, the symbol that proves they are nazis. But that would be too honest, so it does not fit you style.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:56
@Martas "this was not meant to connect you with Jobbik, it is just a fact that your lecture about etymology of word "nazi" pretty much fits to evolution of that party."

I don't care what your intention was. I'm not a mind reader and I do not claim to be one. The problem with the above is that you assume that I had some intention of whitewashing Jobbik from naziism when I have described the difference between naziism and nationalism. So, in the above you assume that I'm not a truth seeker. This is why I call this a lie. You have absolutely no reason to assume that and you made the statement above with ill-faith, ignoring any rational basis of the contrary.

"The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of socialism, as an alternative to both Marxist international socialism and free-market capitalism. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Even your favorite source of information describes that National Socialism is a nationalist redefinition of socialism. Which means that socialism existed prior to that in a non-nationalist form and nationalism existed before in a non-socialist form. Combining the two led to national-socialism, which is the exact same thing as nazism. So it is factually accurate that every nationalist who is not socialist is not nazi and it is also factually true that every socialist who is not nationalist is not a nazi. And it is not "my" definition. It is the generally accepted definition. Are all the politologists in the world defining nazism in a manner "to exclude Jobbik"? I don't think so. Words have definitions. Words have meanings. Nazi means national AND socialist. In the case of the Azov batallion, seeing their symbolism we see that they openly and proudly wear nazi symbols. So it is clear that they are nazis.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:55
@Martas I have said the following:

"This is Azov's emblem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg"

You said they have changed it. And guess what: you are right! They changed it to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg

Which still has the Wolfsangel on it, modified slightly to resemble a swastika. Congratulations! So, Azov changed its emblem from Wolfsangel to Wolfsangel. Very "good" argument indeed, as you have just proven that the people you try to whitewash are indeed nazis. Bravo!

"Fair enough. If you agree something is not a valid reason for attacking the country, do you consider it as a valid reason for supporting such attack or accepting such support?"

No. I have stated from the start that I disagree with Karjakin on many points. I support his right to express his views. But I do not support his views. While he is correct in pointing out that there is a nazi issue in Ukraine, IMHO he is wrong when he sees this as a justification for attacking it. Another example: I clearly disagree with many statements that you have made. But if someone wanted to silence you by force or by punishment, I would argue for your right to express your views, no matter how wrong (I think) you are. So I respect your freedom to say what you think even though I do not consider your comments to be decent, especially because you are misrepresenting what I said. This is why I treat you like a troll. So, this is the deal: you are free to misrepresent what I said and I am free to expose you for it.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:55
@Martas "But in case of Ukraine in your eyes there is no difference"

There are non-nazi nationalists in Ukraine and there are nazis. The Azov batallion is a nazi group. They use nazi symbols to this day, so this is a pretty obvious fact. So, it is quite baseless to claim that I would ignore the existence of non-nazi nationalists in Ukraine, since I have never made such a claim. In other words: you lie. Again.

"every sign of nationalism is for you a clear prove of being nazi."

Of course this is a lie. I have never made such a statement about Ukrainians who defend their country in general. In fact I called them heroic in many threads. But, the Azov batallion wears nazi symbols. So it is visible and obvious that they are nazi. Would a non-nazi wear a nazi symbol on his uniform? No. A non-nazi would fight in the Ukrainian military as a soldier and would not represent nazism. So, members of the Azov batallion are nazis. Members of the Ukrainian military are diverse in their world view with one common element: willing to defend their country. So, there is a clear distinction between nazi and nationalist, independently of which country we speak about. In Ukraine there are lots of non-nazi nationalists who defend their country. And there are a few groups of nazi extremists, members of terror groups, backed by the government. You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that. So I conclude that you are a nazi supporter who lies about nazis in Ukraine.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:55
@Martas "For me this is far from valid defense of somebody who express support of war and uses same arguments as a reason for that (not even as an excuse)."

I don't know who that "somebody" is. If you refer to me, then you are of course not saying the truth, as I have expressed many times in this thread that I do not support the war. If you refer to Karjakin, then it is true that Karjakin supports his president and country in this war, even though you and I disagree. However, I separate tolerance from agreeing. I tolerate statements I do not agree with. So, I would not question Karjakin's right to freely express his views even though I disagree with him on many points.

"And regarding your rigid distinction between nationalists and nazis, you clearly try to separate these groups in case of Hungary and you feel very offended by any note which could possibly connect you to Jobbik with nazi past."

First of all, nazis and nationalists are not the same thing. Anyone not living in a cave knows this. Nazis are national-socialists, while nationalists can be liberals or conservative as well. This is true everywhere in the world, including Hungary or Ukraine. Secondly, I'm not being offended when you claim that Jobbik is a nazi part. I just detect that you are making an untrue statement and I'm explaining why you are wrong. If you say that 2+2 equals 5, I'm not offended. I explain why you are wrong instead. Thirdly, I have explained who the nazis in Hungary are. If you were an honest person, then you would understand that the nazi party is Mi Hazánk, while Jobbik is an ex-nazi party. This is the truth. If Jobbik would be nazi, I would acknowledge that. But they are leftist now, even though they claim to be conservative.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:54
@Martas Jobbik was nazi in the past and they changed ideology. I'm making this statement as a factual and verifiable claim, not in their defense. When you say that I'm "defending" Jobbik you attempt to deceive other readers into thinking that my claim is not founded on reality, but on some intention to "defend" them. So, you lie about my intention, because you continue making that statement even after I clarified that my statement about them is factual. Also, your claim about me "defending" Jobbik does not even make sense, as I already pointed to a Hungarian nazi group, so I'm not trying to depict Hungary as a nazi-free country. You are a liar. You repetitively lie about me. You are asking what my problem is. I do not have a problem. You are a liar and a troll and I'm exposing you for what you are.

"However this is not sufficient to keep accusing them forever, like you do in every second comment."

They are using nazi symbols now. It's not five years ago. It is now. So, should I believe that a non-nazi group wears nazi symbols?

As usual, you ignore the most important sources. Like the USA not allowing them to train Americans because they are nazis. The wikipedia article also calls them "neo-nazis" in present tense. So, you ignore your main source of information when its main statement about the Azov batallion is that they are nazis. Is it a good feeling to whitewash nazis? Are you proud of yourself?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:54
@SunriseK I'm not at all surprised that Arzi did not answer your direct question. Instead, he asked a counter question, even though there is a consensus here that Russia's main reason to start the war was probably geopolitics rather than the Ukrainian nazis. Also, nobody claimed that there are no nazis outside of Ukraine. Yet, Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine. I'm also not surprised that Martas was also not acknowledging that the Azov batallion is a nazi group. I maintain that any honest and informed person would acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group.

@Martas "trying to solve any nazi based question is in this context nothing more then providing excuse for the invasion or Karjakin."

We, commenters here are not trying to solve these issues. However, that does not stop SunriseK or myself in pointing out factually and honestly the existence of this problem. And of course, the existence of nazi groups in Ukraine does not validate the war and does not exempt Karjakin from bearing the consequences of what he says and does. Yet, I find his exclusion from the world championship candidates Orwellian and the setting of a dangerous precedent that will scare chess players away from expressing their views, whatever they might be.

"IMHO answer to your "most important" question requires much more research then you are able to do on your own."

I believe you that you are not able to do that research. But others are able. I have provided lots of factual proofs about Azov. You choose not to acknowledge it.
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 03:57
@lajosarpad : My first comment regarding Jobbik which you referred to - "lajosarpad limits this to progressive and socialist in order to exclude Jobbik" - this was not meant to connect you with Jobbik, it is just a fact that your lecture about etymology of word "nazi" pretty much fits to evolution of that party. It were your later comments due to which I used word "defense". And no matter how crazy you went because of this now, you did defend Jobbik afterwards.

Forgive me, I'm not a nationalist and not a fan of them, it sounds to me ugly if somebody tries to teach how to distinguish good and bad ones and tries to prove it with outdated and sometimes even false information. In case of distinguishing by conservative/socialist I'm a bit missing any information pointing to "socialist" aspect of Azov, so far it was only outdated emblem of Azov.
I have no problem with nationalists when they handle topics inside of their country and it's up to that country to handle them. However I see as a big problem when nationalists start interfering in other country and start fighting for their own interests. And in this case distinction between socialist and conservative looses it's relevance.
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 01:59
@lajosarpad : "Ukraine has a nazi problem indeed and Russia used it as an excuse for the invasion. I claim that it is not a valid reason to attack a country and possibly start WWIII"
Fair enough. If you agree something is not a valid reason for attacking the country, do you consider it as a valid reason for supporting such attack or accepting such support?
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 01:18
@lajosarpad : "This is Azov's emblem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg "
Your information is outdated for 7 years.
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 01:02
@lajosarpad: you called me a liar I expect due to my statement "I understand you would defend Jobbik " written on 5/16/2022 02:36. Besides the fact of using conditional "would" I was referring to your comments on the previous day where you have several times stated that Jobbik has a nazi past but it is nazi-free already (5/15/2022 04:45, 5/15/2022 04:26). What is your problem, nuances in english language or remembering or even understanding what you wrote???

Regarding Azov, we can agree on problematic history during the time when the squad was created, including their former leaders. However this is not sufficient to keep accusing them forever, like you do in every second comment. I took a time to go through your links to articles or videos I found a lot of blames about vandalism, incidents same as those of footbal hooligans, assumptions without proves. Worst case being labeling as murderer somebody who killed a person when defending himself against 2 guys trying to kill him and who left the court clean. For me this is far from valid defense of somebody who express support of war and uses same arguments as a reason for that (not even as an excuse).

And regarding your rigid distinction between nationalists and nazis, you clearly try to separate these groups in case of Hungary and you feel very offended by any note which could possibly connect you to Jobbik with nazi past. But in case of Ukraine in your eyes there is no difference, every sign of nationalism is for you a clear prove of being nazi. Fidesz is conservative, right? How conservative is recent Orban's note about loosing access to sea in context of discussing sanctions due to war?
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 10:21
@SunriseK: one more point to connection between Karjakin and Alekhine. For evaluating the support quite important is the context. Supporting Hitler 90 years ago could be considered as foolish, later you can excuse. Supporting Hitler in war time is considered as inexcusable, Alekhine payed the price for that. Same thing with Putin, once the war starts and becomes ugly, any such support can no longer be considered as foolish opinions.
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 10:15
@SunriseK : "So which are instead your opinions about Azov Battalion and the many other groups/people that I cited from wiki pages (Tryzub, RightSector, Dmytro Yarosh, Stepan Bandera)? Are they nazi extremists or not, according to you? This is the most important question IMHO! "

Bandera died 70 years ago, isn't it? I repeat what I mentioned here earlier, solving questions like this as a precondition for resolving the conflict means holding the longest conflict ever. In context of Karjakin the main problem is support of invasion, trying to solve any nazi based question is in this context nothing more then providing excuse for the invasion or Karjakin. IMHO answer to your "most important" question requires much more research then you are able to do on your own. I'm not a fan of any of those, but so I'm not a fan of any witchhunting.
arzi arzi 5/19/2022 07:49
SunriseK:"So which are instead your opinions about Azov Battalion and the many other groups/people that I cited from wiki pages (Tryzub, RightSector, Dmytro Yarosh, Stepan Bandera)? Are they nazi extremists or not, according to you?"

I’ll give you a counter-question instead of starting to google the names you enter. Do you think that this whole Ukraine WAR, not a special operation, has started because of Nazis in Ukraine? Do you think that Putin started this "special operation" to SAVE the Ukrainians from the clutches of Nazism? Do you think that there are, so called, Nazis ONLY in Ukraine? Any proof of that? What is your definition of the Nazi? Certain colour of the eyes and hairs, using leather boots and Nazi military caps, little Hitler -mustache? There are millions of people around the world, some call those men and women as heroes and others extreme terrorists or Nazis. Are the heroes really heroes and are the extreme terrorists really terrorists or ... Nazis? Turkey, for example, has defined critics of the head of state as terrorists. Are they really terrorists? Maybe they are also Nazis?

SunriseK"Ok, but I believe it doesn’t change anything: I wanted to point out the risk of going off-topic, no matter who is the one expressing his opinion, editor of Chessbase or Carlsen, as you correctly noticed (with your magnifier on)."

Of course it matters. You gave us the impression that Chessbase, as a company, is attacking against Karjakin when they actually just repeat the words of Magnus Carlsen in their interview. Truth matters and a little change in sentence may have a big difference.

Here is also an useful proverb for you to ponder: "When you point the finger at another person, usually at least three fingers of the same hand point at yourself."
SunriseK SunriseK 5/19/2022 12:34
@arzi: “Actually this page is: ‘Carlsen: Karjakin wants to become a martyr’. There is a difference between the two sentences. One sentence gives an idea of ​​what Chessbase’s editor think of Karjakin and the second sentence of a chess player’s opinion of Karjakin. Which do you think it is, SunriseK?”
Ok, but I believe it doesn’t change anything: I wanted to point out the risk of going off-topic, no matter who is the one expressing his opinion, editor of Chessbase or Carlsen, as you correctly noticed (with your magnifier on).
There is an useful proverb for you to ponder: “When the finger indicates the moon, you should look at the moon and not at the finger!” You are talking about the finger instead, :-)