Carlsen: “Karjakin wants to become a martyr”

Lajosarpad:"What is the lie exactly? Have you acknowledged that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine yet? No? Then the above is correct."

I have already told you, you can check that for yourself. So you did it deliberately, not accidentally.

Lajosarpad:"The above is an obvious lie. You have repeatedly called me a liar in the last few days."

Yes, I told you that I will call you as a liar if you do NOT correct your mistake and explain to me if that false writing to SunriseK was done by accidentally or intentionally. Don´t you remember that? Are you demented? Maybe not, but you are a liar and it seems to be also an idiot.

@Martas What did Karjakin say: "I am on the side of Russia and my President. No matter what happens, I will support my country in any situation without thinking for a second!"

And now let's paraphrase it into Ukraine's context and let's imagine that a Ukrainian patriot says it:

"I am on the side of Ukraine and my President. No matter what happens, I will support my country in any situation without thinking for a second!"

would I see any problem with this? Not at all. At war times patriots usually stand by their country. Supporting one's country like that is not a direct call for action. By contrast, let's consider the example of "knives for Hungarians", a slogan shouted by members of Carpathian Sich, Right Sector, Azov and Aidar regiments in a rally at Ungvár/Uzhorod. "Knives for Hungarians" is actively calling to kill any Hungarian. Supporting the president in the context of a war that is already occurring is not an active call for violence.

My position is that there are very serious nazi problems in Ukraine and even though this is not the most important issue for Ukrainians right now, but from Hungarian perspective the #1 issue in Ukraine is that there is an oppressed group of Hungarians who are constantly threatened by Ukrainian nazis.

I will ask you again:

was the banning of minority languages in schools a freedom-loving and wise decision by Ukraine? Yes or No?
was depriving the Crimea from 90% of its fresh water a nice gesture towards the people - including Ukrainians - living there? Yes or No?
do you think that the press, the political parties can freely operate in Ukraine and is freedom of opinion and expression respected in Ukraine? Yes or No?
are minorities, including Hungarian, Polish, Ruthenian, Russian and Romanian people treated fairly in Ukraine? Yes or No?

@Martas "Since 2017, new laws on education and the state language severely restrict ethnic minorities in using and studying in their native language."
"As of July 1, 2021, a new law limits the definition of ‘indigenous’ minorities. The law not only contravenes common sense, but is also highly discriminatory. While certain indigenous peoples are recognized, the Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, and Poles—and of course, the Russians – are not recognized, nor are their language rights."
"The current draft Law on National Communities, too, is built upon vague concepts that limit rather than protect existing rights. Instead of ‘minorities,’ it talks about “communities” – an apparent bid to evade Ukraine’s existing commitments to internationally recognized minority rights instruments."
"The Venice Commission, an advisory body of the Council of Europe in which the U.S. is represented, established that Ukraine has failed to ensure the linguistic rights of minorities, and recommended that Ukraine implement measures to ensure a sufficient level of teaching in minority languages."
"Hate speech and hate crimes against ethnic minority groups continue to be tolerated. Over the past three years, ultra-nationalist groups set fire to the office of the Cultural Alliance of Hungarians in Subcarpathia; posted ‘stop the separatists’ billboards with photos of Hungarian community leaders, including me; and run a website that lists the addresses of ethnic Hungarian community leaders, branding them ‘enemies of Ukraine’ – all with impunity."
"The still-functioning extremist Myrotvorets website, which has evident ties to government officials, listed the addresses of ethnic Hungarian community leaders and branded them as “enemies of Ukraine.”"
"In May 2021, graffiti appeared warning ethnic Hungarians to leave the country lest they or “be poisoned like rats.”"

@Martas "Are you sure, that even today you want to tolerate Karjakin's "political opinions"? "

Yes! I tolerate political opinions that I consider to be deeply wrong, including Karjakin's and yours. His quote

"I am on the side of Russia and my President. No matter what happens, I will support my country in any situation without thinking for a second!"

is a patriotic pledge for his country in the context of a war where his country is the aggressor. So both you and I consider it to be troubling. However, on the other hand, I argue for freedom of expression, freedom of opinion and freedom of speech and these freedoms have a higher priority according to my opinion than my liking or disliking of various opinions.

"How should I describe all your statements about nacizm in Ukraine, nazi parties and Azov batalion? Would you say you are tolerating them or their "political opinions" (sometimes even things you expect are their political opinions)?"

I tolerate opinions no matter how reprehensible they are to me. But, in the case of Ukrainian nazis, their modus operandi was not limited to talks. They attacked institutions with molotov cocktails (https://dailynewshungary.com/molotov-cocktail-hurled-hungarians-union-building-ukraine/)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ukrainian-nationalists-march-in-in-honor-of-nazi-collaborator/
Should we tolerate molotov attacks in the name of free speech? No. The perpetrators were thugs. And why should we tolerate a slogan of "knives for Hungarians"? (https://visegradpost.com/en/2016/03/18/ukrainian-nationalists-threatened-the-hungarian-minority/)

@Martas

"do you want to say you didn't argue about Jobbik as a response to arzi's critics about it's connection to nazis?"

First of all, this is what you said:

"lajosarpad limits this to progressive and socialist in order to exclude Jobbik"

You claimed that the very reason of my identifying nazism as the ideology that's nationalist and socialist at the same time was to exclude Jobbik. Of course this is a baseless claim which, instead of dealing with what I said was containing insinuations about my motivation. Later on both you and I shortened this to "defend" Jobbik. So, the initial lie on your part was that I "wanted" to exclude Jobbik from the definition of nazism, whereas I did not have Jobbik in my mind when I was speaking about nazism.

The national-socialist party of Germany, the originator of nazism called itself national and socialist. So they clearly considered themselves socialists and nationalists, so, they were inspired both from nationalistic ideas in terms of culture and they were inspired by marxist ideas in terms of the economy. So, whenever we consider a person or a group as possibly national-socialist, we need to see whether the person or group is nationalist and socialist at the same time, or views national-socialism as something to be followed.

Stepan Bandera was a nazi collaborator and is now considered to be a national hero in Ukraine. Groups like the Azov battalion and the Right Sector. According to BBC news (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25571805), the Right Sector commemorated Stepan Bandera's 105th birthday. So they clearly view a nazi as a national hero, a great personality who they want to follow. Bandera was a nazi collaborator and is responsible for tens of thousands of murdered Polish people. That's the role model in Ukraine today. So, it is clear to me that Ukraine has a nazi problem.

"I am on the side of Russia and my President. No matter what happens, I will support my country in any situation without thinking for a second!" - Karjakin

"Supporting Russia or the president is not a call for violence, nor for crime, even if we consider Russia's actions to be containing war crimes." lajosarpad 4/9/2022 01:20

"I would say that now as well. You mix up agreement with tolerance. I do not agree with Karjakin's support of his president. But objectively reading what Karjakin said, I have seen no calls for violence, hence he expressed a political opinion that is to be tolerated in a free society. " lajosarpad (today)

@lajosarpad: There are many reports about finished investigations of war crimes. For quite some time already. Supporting Russia or his president is a call to follow up with that. Are you sure, that even today you want to tolerate Karjakin's "political opinions"?
How should I describe all your statements about nacizm in Ukraine, nazi parties and Azov batalion? Would you say you are tolerating them or their "political opinions" (sometimes even things you expect are their political opinions)? I don't think so, considering all what you wrote about that, including all personal attacks to support your view.
Now please compare these 2 views of yours and feel free to adjust them if you consider it's needed.

"defend = to protect someone or something against attack or criticism"
"To defend is also to argue in support of something, esp. when it has been criticized"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/defend
@lajosarpad: do you want to say you didn't argue about Jobbik as a response to arzi's critics about it's connection to nazis?

Banning one's language is seriously damaging his/her possibilites, as he/she will not be able to express his/her thoughts as clearly in a second language. If this is done to children during their formative years with the aim to forcefully assimilate them, that's child abuse. If that's a law of a country - Ukraine in this case - then I call that law abusive. Every human being, especially children should experience freedom everywhere.

"The Hungarian language has an
increasing prevalence as the single language at home at the expense of the
mixed Hungarian-Slovak language."

They were not compelled into assimilation as far as I know. Ukraine, on the other hand, banned minority languages in schools https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-hungary-ukraine-eu-language-idUKKBN1CH2KC

Minorities in Hungary have a cultural autonomous status: https://brill.com/view/journals/ijgr/26/1/article-p1_1.xml?language=en

while Slovakia and Ukraine does not want to grant any kind of autonomy to their minorities, even though, Ukraine would be obliged to do it in view of the Transcarpathian referendum of 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Transcarpathian_general_regional_referendum

You can cite Hungarian flaws as many as you like. I grant you that you can find flaws, it is not perfect. But we are not forbidding anyone from using their own language in schools in their formative years.

Besides all this, hundreds of thousands have fled to Hungary and as far as I know they were treated well, with respect and they were helped, a large humanitarian effort is being made in order to help the people who were displaced by the war.

"Most of the Slovaks in Hungary either speak both Hungarian and Slovak or
only Hungarian. Only a very small minority (and no one in the youngest
cohort) uses only Slovakian at home. The Hungarian language has an
increasing prevalence as the single language at home at the expense of the
mixed Hungarian-Slovak language." - http://sjps.fsvucm.sk/Articles/11_3_3.pdf

@Martas You know, people feel oppressed if their children are not allowed to learn mathematics and other things using their own language at schools.

The link you have given https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-charter-regional-or-minority-languages/home/-/asset_publisher/VzXuex45jmKt/content/hungary-needs-to-strengthen-use-of-and-access-to-minority-languages?_101_INSTANCE_VzXuex45jmKt_viewMode=view/

says that Hungary was praised by members of the Committe for the freedom of language use and they had presented recommendations for improvements. So, I'm not sure what you wanted to illustrate, as it is clear that there is a certain level of free language use for minorities and it is also clear that it is highly probable that more can be done for their freedom. Hungary at least has some mechanisms with this purpose. Ukraine also had such mechanisms up until 2014.

"Hungary’s ministerial commissioner István Grezsa, was banned from entering Ukraine."

Hungary asked Hungarians in Ukraine to vote for the Hungarian representation. Calling this a meddling in Ukrainian elections is quite absurd in my opinion.

@Martas

"What is the current state of minority language situation in Hungary?"

Everyone has the unalienable right to use his/her language and minorities have institutions for self-government. Nobody is excluded based on nationality, creed or citizenship from being a mayor or some other important figure.

"there was a common understanding that Hungarian minorities in neighbor countries are handled much better then corresponding minorities in Hungary."

In Slovakia the Benes decrees are in place, according to which every Hungarian is guilty for the world war and if someone has Hungarian citizenship, he/she will lose his/her Slovakian citizenship. So, Hungarians have to face hardships in Slovakia, while I do not know of such hardships of Slovakians in Hungary, for instance, I have never heard of any case when a Slovakian has lost Hungarian citizenship because having Slovakian citizenship. But you did not answer my question:

was the restriction of linguistic freedom for minority languages a nice and freedom-loving gesture by Ukraine?

are minorities, including Hungarian, Polish, Ruthenian, Russian and Romanian people treated fairly in Ukraine?

@Martas Let me put this into perspective:

I strongly disagree with your conduct here, the attempt to whitewash nazis and I'm calling you out every time you make a knowingly false statement. But, if someone would want to punish you, take your possessions, hurt you or exclude you from places where you have already qualified on the basis of your statements here, I would stand by your side and would say that I usually disagree with you, but I consider your freedom of speech to be an unalienable right. And this is valid in the case of Karjakin as well. So, while I disagree with him on many points, I support his freedom of speech until he calls for violence. So, the question is: what was his worst comment? The reason for searching for the worst is that consequently his other thoughts are better, or less bad, so, if we can see whether he called for violence in his worst comment, then we can decide whether he should face disciplinatory actions. But I did not see any calls for violence so far on his part.

So, according to me, he expressed a political opinion, which he should be allowed to.

@Martas "the fact that in previous comment you used word "Jobbik" 5 times denying it's nazi status."

I'm saying they are no longer nazis because they are no longer nazis. I have no aim to defend them at all. So, when you say that I defend, despite the fact that I have pointed out that it is not the case, then I call you out for it. Why would I want to "defend" them at all? Would it be to deny the fact that there are Hungarian nazis as well? But I was the very person who pointed out who the nazis are in Hungary at this point. Instead of thanking me for clarifying a matter that you obviously misunderstood, you maintained a statement even though it was obvious - even to you - that it was false by that point.

About Karjakin and myself you have made the factual statement that I said that I agree with all that Karjakin said. I call that a lie until you either revoke it or show the actual quote where I said it. What I do agree with Karjakin about is that there is a nazi problem in Ukraine. Yet, I do not agree with him supporting the invasion. As about the quote of

"Supporting Russia or the president is not a call for violence, nor for crime, even if we consider Russia's actions to be containing war crimes."

I would say that now as well. You mix up agreement with tolerance. I do not agree with Karjakin's support of his president. But objectively reading what Karjakin said, I have seen no calls for violence, hence he expressed a political opinion that is to be tolerated in a free society.

@Martas well, since you were maintaining that I defend Jobbik even when I clarified that it was not the case, you were choosing a ridiculous position, that is, acting as if you knew better what I've meant than me. Since you have behaved in an unserious manner, it is a logical follow-up that I warned others about this. I did not get angry because you said that I defended Jobbik. I know better whether I am angry than you. However if you maintain an obviously false position intentionally, don't be surprised if you are called out for it.

"I have pointed you to problem of that link in my very next comment"

You refer to this:

"Regarding your proofs regarding convicting criminal : "Sternenko was the target of three assassination attempts.[2] In 2018, he became visible in the media after the third attempt. It is believed that the "manhunt" was organized by supporters of Anti-maidan and their sympathizers. During the self-defence, one of the two attackers died and the second fled abroad."

I didn't react to it, because I find it to be irrelevant, since you were arguing against him not being a convicted criminal, yet, the very reason that I have shared that link was to point out that the Ukrainian government is in quite good terms with nazis, the Right Sector this time. Since your answer did not address my point, I did not find it to be very relevant.

"Hungary’s ministerial commissioner István Grezsa, was banned from entering Ukraine. This comes after Ukraine accused Budapest of meddling in the recent Ukrainian local elections, an accusation that the Hungarian government refuted by saying that they simply encouraged ethnic Hungarians to vote for parties that represent their minority interests."

Part of that last sentence can be as well interpreted in a sense "an accusation that the Hungarian government refuted by admitting it's true".

@lajosarpad : Regarding arguments in https://hungarytoday.hu/ukraine-ethnic-minorities-hungarians-nato-eu/

What is the current state of minority language situation in Hungary? Multiple sources are pointing to great legislative but not so well working practically, mostly due to economic reasons. I have close connection to Slovakia and as far as I remember the status 20 years ago, there was a common understanding that Hungarian minorities in neighbor countries are handled much better then corresponding minorities in Hungary.

https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-charter-regional-or-minority-languages/home/-/asset_publisher/VzXuex45jmKt/content/hungary-needs-to-strengthen-use-of-and-access-to-minority-languages?_101_INSTANCE_VzXuex45jmKt_viewMode=view/

@lajosarpad : regarding quality of your links, my intention was not to generalize, I have mentioned that some of them are good, however some are really bad.
"3. Asking for proofs (Martas), when this topic was already discussed in Chessbase and it is obviously true that the Azov battalion is a nazi group that's endangering minorities in Ukraine
- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/05/01/ukr-m01.html" lajosarpad 5/15/2022 02:57"

I have pointed you to problem of that link in my very next comment, which you completely ignored, instead you came with statements like "I would not take Martas too seriously" and instead of addressing the problem you started to flood the discussion with more and more links and in some cases you repeated the same issue, ie Veterans today link which at very begining comes with claim about building blown up by Azov guys with main picture showing building which was obviously destroyed by bomb which fell down on that building.
I would accept you missed it because of getting angry about mentioning "defense of Jobbik", however in that sentense I was only pointing to similarity of 2 argumentations and the fact that in previous comment you used word "Jobbik" 5 times denying it's nazi status.

"- there was no reason to assume that I'm doing Russian propaganda
- your statement according to which I have said that I agree with everything Karjakin said/written was originated 100% in your fantasy " lajosarpad 5/18/2022 06:21

"There is no point to search in Karjakin's quotes to find something convincing you about anything. You clearly stated that you agree with all what he said/wrote." Martas, 2022-05-17 09:59

All right, there we go. Main problematic statements of Karjakin were pointing to accusing Ukraine of being nazi and expressing full support of Putin to handle it. I'm not able to provide you links to Karjakin's twitter, I suggest you to check SunriseK's comment 4/19/2022 10:25 , or directly dig into decision reasoning of FIDE folks.
First part I'm not sure where to point you, I hope you acknowledge that you have several times stated that Ukraine has a serious problem with nazis and provided lot of resources to prove it. Regarding Karjakin's support of president or his right to support his actions, I refer to your comment
"Supporting Russia or the president is not a call for violence, nor for crime, even if we consider Russia's actions to be containing war crimes." 4/9/2022 01:20
I have recently acknowledged shift in your statements considering my comment on 5/23/2022 12:59. But on 17/05 I have reacted to your previous statements which at that point I found contradictory.

Regarding propaganda, closest thing I found is "Or just repeating russian propaganda?" 4/18/2022 07:59 , which was a question, I don't see this as a valid basis for speculations regarding my assumption about your intentions.

Arzi "Btw, if you see in the sentence a question mark (?), it means that the sentence is a question, not accusation or attack."
Arzi "Are you an idiot? "

So, the "question" above is not an accusation or an attack, but a question. LOL.

"I haven´t call you a liar or an idiot, although you sometimes earn those "titles"."

The above is an obvious lie. You have repeatedly called me a liar in the last few days. Why do you state that you did not call me a liar, when it is an obvious and verifiable fact and you were quite consistent in calling me a liar? Also, you have very recently admitted that the reason you are being "harsh" is that at some point in the past I told you that you are being dishonest. So you know perfectly well that I do not lie when I say that you have chosen not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine. So, I maintain my statement about you until you acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and that there is a nazi issue in Ukraine. If you ever find the decency to acknowledge this, then of course I will also acknowledge that you acknowledged it. However, I will not acknowledge that you acknowledged Ukraine's nazi problem if you never reach that point, and, instead you maintain your current position of licking the boots of Ukrainian nazis.

@Arzi "You would gladly give some territory (if you, Lajosarpad, would be an Ukrainian) to Russia to get all those nazis death, right?"

No. The Ukrainian territory loss seems to be a likely outcome unless a world war starts for Ukraine, independently of what you or I would like. Yet, for me the most important aspect of Ukraine is the Hungarian minority in Transcarpathia, which was consistently harrassed by Ukrainian nazis in the last 8 years. https://hungarytoday.hu/ukraine-ethnic-minorities-hungarians-nato-eu/

https://hungarytoday.hu/another-arson-attack-ethnic-hungarians-ukraine-hungarian-fm-calls-osce-special-monitoring-mission-transcarpathia-79869/

I have difficulty to view those who actively oppress and terrorize minorities as "heroes". Also, it is quite obvious that Stepan Bandera was a nazi collaborator whose organization killed 50 000 - 100 000 Poles and he is considered to be a national hero in Ukraine. If Ukraine would not have a serious nazi issue, then such a thing would be impossible.

"How many nazis there are in Ukraine and how many in Hungary? Can you give me some numbers? Any numbers in percentage?"

I do not have the exact numbers. I do see some armed nazi groups in Ukraine though. I see Ukraine celebrating Bandera as their national hero, the person whose organization killed 50 000 - 100 000 Poles. And I see two persons in this discussion who are in denial about this.

"So, don´t try to give me any links, I`m not going to open and read them."

Nobody compelled you to share sources, yet, it is quite ridiculous that you do not want to look at the sources shared by others, yet, you asked me for proofs. Of course, you wanted me to prove a position I do not agree with, but that's the smaller problem here. Any proof that one can bring pro or contra a position will be presented as links, because the proof itself can be longer than the whole discussion here.

@Arzi

""Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."

This is a LIE!"

What is the lie exactly? Have you acknowledged that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine yet? No? Then the above is correct.

In my view you have not acknowledged that, despite of abundant proofs being presented here. So, you have chosen not to acknowledge this fact. Instead, you operate with deception, fallacies, whataboutisms, without ever telling the truth about the Azov battalion. I have also observed that the more evidence about them being nazis are presented, the more angry you are. Good!

"I have asked from you, many times, if Russia started the war against Ukraine because of this nazi -issue and also because of Azov -batallion."

And I have answered with a NO. So, now you, quite dishonestly ask me to prove a "YES", which is not my position.

"In my opinion these Nazi and Azov issues in this thread are ridiculous alongside the disaster in Ukraine caused by Putin's RUSSIA, and not by the marginal Nazis in UKRAINE. "

This is a real problem. It is a perfectly normal attitude to side with the Ukrainian aims to defend themselves. However, supporting the Azov battalion by lying about them in the attempt to whitewash nazis is unnecessary.

"Well, if there are nazi batallion fighting and dying for Ukraine against the CRIMINAL attack by Russia, I would call them as heroes, don`t you, lajosarpad (liar)?"

I acknowledge that the members of the Azov battalion were heroic in Mariupol. However, I would not call nazis "heroes". The non-nazi Ukrainian soldiers are heroes to me. Members of the Azov battalion are nazi thugs to me.

@Martas Also, I would also like to ask you a few simple questions:

was the restriction of linguistic freedom for minority languages a nice and freedom-loving gesture by Ukraine?
are minorities, including Hungarian, Polish, Ruthenian, Russian and Romanian people treated fairly in Ukraine?
do you think that the press, the political parties can freely operate in Ukraine and is freedom of opinion and expression respected in Ukraine?
do you think that damming the North Crimean Canal by Ukraine and depriving the peninsula of 90% of its fresh water was a nice gesture towards the people living on the Crimean peninsula?

I expect yes or no answers to these direct questions. And to clarify: I do not view any of these as valid causes for wars or invasions and I view the Russian army as an invader army which also uses extremist symbols, resembling the Soviet Union.

@Martas As about the qualities and validities of my arguments, I would not claim that I'm right about everything. Yet, I'm a truth seeker and I find it amazing that you and Arzi have chosen not to acknowledge the fact that the Azov battalion is a nazi group. They are nazis, obviously. One can see their symbols and actions and even your main source of information - Wikipedia - claims they are nazis in the very first paragraph of the article written about them. Yet, you dismiss it as "obviously" false, without enlightening us about how is it so obviously false. Instead, you criticize me for quoting from veteranstoday, which is a biased source of information according to you, but you quote from a site called promoteukraine. That is quite hypocritical. You criticize me for citing a news article from a source that you consider to be biased, but you have no moral or logical problem to quote from an obvious propaganda site and presenting it as the truth and then you add an archeological finding from the 8th (!) century as a proof that the Russians are using nazi symbols. Wouldn't it be simpler and more honorable to just admit that the Azov battalion is a nazi group and add that nevertheless Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is rightfully defending itself?

@Martas You speak about trolling. Yet, you claimed that I said that I agree with Karjakin on everything, without ever providing a quote or any factual basis on that. So, you were dishonest and you have made that claim with ill faith. If you dislike the fact that I have exposed it, that's good! Maybe in the future you will attribute to me what I said and not falsely attribute to me statements that I did not say.

So, if you maintain that you did not lie, then show me when did I say that I agree with all what Karjakin said/wrote. This was your lie:

"There is no point to search in Karjakin's quotes to find something convincing you about anything. You clearly stated that you agree with all what he said/wrote." Martas, 2022-05-17 09:59

There are two possible decent answers to this that you can provide: you are either showing me when did I state that I agree with everything Karjakin said (I have been very explicit that I disagree with him on several points, the most important being the validity of the war, which I disagree with) or you admit that the statement above has no connection to reality and you apologize for it. You never had the facts for the former or the decency for the latter.

By contrast, when you said that the Ukrainians should apologize for being attacked, it was a straw man fallacy, which is a different kind of misrepresentation of the other person's position, yet, it was not outright lie. You did not say that I said that Ukrainians should apologize for being attacked. You were "only" insinuating that.

@Martas "Position of US and Canada regarding Azov Batallion and it's support has a lot to do with careful PR related to nazi accusations of Azov Batallion, calling this a proof can be considered as presumption of guilt. "

Yeah, right, all those US and Canadian politicians and specialists know nothing. You know better :D

"Regarding your personal attacks, feel free, I'm not going to follow that and I'm not going to behave the same way."

Well, you said that I defend Jobbik even after I clarified that it's not the case. You also said that I said that I agree with everything Karjakin said. That's also an obvious lie. You claim that everything you say about me was based on what I said. So, please point out, when did I state that I agree with Karjakin on everything??? So, whenever you say falsehoods about me, I feel free, even entitled to expose you. If you dislike it, don't misrepresent what I say and especially don't maintain such falsehoods even after they were debunked. Simple. I have no issue with disagreeing with you. Yet, when you suggest that the motivation behind the definition I brought about nazis is to exclude Jobbik (an ex-nazi party), then you are so wrong on so many levels that it is quite normal to doubt your honesty. Yet, since you refused to accept that the identification of Jobbik as an ex-nazi party is my honest opinion about them, then you have proven to me that you are intentionally present falsehood as truth. Nobody forced you to do it. So, after making so many false statements about me, I find your comment about me bringing nonsense here to be hilarious.

@Martas it is not a nazi symbol. If one opens the wiki page, its caption is "8th century wolf hook from the Carolingian Villa Arnesburg in Lich". Since nazis were not operating in the 8th century yet this is not a nazi symbol.

"According to Galina Starovoitova Fellow Kamil Galeev, "Z" is a letter that Russian Military are putting on their vehicles departing to Ukraine. "Some interpret "Z" as "Za pobedy" (for victory). Others - as "Zapad" (West),” the scholar said on Twitter." https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/explained-what-does-the-z-symbol-on-russian-military-vehicles-mean-2808239

The Z has become a pro war symbol and it should be clear that an army that is supposedly fighting to "denazify Ukraine" will not wear nazi symbols.

You quoted from Wikipedia multiple times, so it is a source that is reliable-enough to you to quote from. Which does not mean that you have to believe everything they say, but it does mean that if you disagree with Wikipedia, you should have some arguments in support of your disagreement. Saying that the quotes are "obviously false accusations" without pointing out why they are false is not an argument and subsequently it is unconvincing.

"Most importantly I would never dare to blindly call any such information a proof."

Nobody calls such information "blindly" a proof. It is clear that training of the Azov battalion was stopped in the US in 2018 because they are nazis. A short film was also made about them about a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy910FG46C4

There was abundant information shared about them already here. In my opinion dismissing everything as "obviously false accusation" is the blind position, assuming that you genuinely believe it.

@Martas I have looked at the emblem of the 33rd division: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_Infantry_Division_(Wehrmacht)#/media/File:33._Infanterie-Division_(Wehrmacht)(1._Version).svg

It does not look like a Z.

"and become immediatelly accused from defending russian army"

That Z is not a nazi Wolfsangel. This is a factual statement and it is not aiming to "defend" the Russian army. We can see extremist symbols in the Russian army as well: https://s.observers.france24.com/media/display/523e77e2-a130-11ec-8384-005056bf30b7/w:1024/p:16x9/New%20Project%20%281%29.webp

That symbol belongs to the radical left, as it is a communist symbol. The Azov battalion wears nazi symbols and we see Soviet communist symbols in the Russian army, so we can find quite a lot of problematic symbols in the Russian army as well.

The article that you have shared from promoteukraine is obviously a propaganda article. It is clear from the third sentence, which says

"Moscow’s “Ministry of Truth,” RoskomnadZor, embedded this sign into its title."

Sources we share should at least try to be objective.

As about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Villa_Arnesburg_Wolfsangel_02.JPG

@lajosarpad: regarding my statements about you. Every statement mentioning explicitly you is based on what you wrote. If you feel offended you are free to mention it including arguments why you think I'm wrong, I can agree partially with that or fully disagree. I expect the same thing from you.
Regarding your personal attacks, feel free, I'm not going to follow that and I'm not going to behave the same way. I'm only going to address your arguments, which due to their amount have sometimes problem with quality and validity. Not all of them, you have some valid points but it's not easy to find them due to amount of maybe sometimes less obvious (time to time really obvious) nonsense which you bring along.
Overall the reason why I keep discussing with you is purely the topic which I find really interesting. Drilling in some details makes sense. Besides other things you provided a lot to let me better understand position and behavior of you and your country representatives.

@lajosarpad: "Or is Wikipedia suddenly unreliable if it calls the Azov batallion a nazi group?"
When I provide the link to any page, it's only to point source of information I'm mentioning. It doesn't mean I need to agree with every single opinion written on that page, especially when that opinion was added to that page after I shared the link to it. Most importantly I would never dare to blindly call any such information a proof. I'll explicitly mention it again, statement "Azov batallion IS nazi group" is in my opinion simplification and overstatement which is not justified. And any further conclusions like "Ukrainian goverment supports nazis" based on this I find to be nothing more then trolling. Position of US and Canada regarding Azov Batallion and it's support has a lot to do with careful PR related to nazi accusations of Azov Batallion, calling this a proof can be considered as presumption of guilt.

To Lajosarpad and others: Of all the links you give or get. I don’t use and don’t read them often. If I write something, I’m not going to prove my point on the link, at least not very often, maybe in compelling cases. Once a writer, WillScarlett, in the early stages of the Russian invasion, tried to prove his/her point (for Russia) with a link (on purpose?). I checked the link and noticed that his/her link, actually, was connected to a site supporting the Russian authorities, perhaps the authorities' own. So, don´t try to give me any links, I`m not going to open and read them. If you want to check my writings, you should do that yourself, because I´m not going to give you any links.

Btw, if you see in the sentence a question mark (?), it means that the sentence is a question, not accusation or attack.

To Lajosarpad:
Hungary 10 million people and one nazi is 0,00001 %.
Hungary 10 million people and 500 nazis is 0,005 %.
Hungary 10 million people and 50 000 nazis 0,5%.

How many nazis there are in Ukraine and how many in Hungary? Can you give me some numbers? Any numbers in percentage?

Lajosarpad:"He said that I said that I agree with everything Karjakin said. Can you point out where did I make such a statement? Because I know for a fact that I have not made such a statement. So, he was lying."

Same kind of writings you also do, so you must also be a liar, right? I haven´t call you a liar or an idiot, although you sometimes earn those "titles".

Lajosarpad:"I do not like fallacies and I dislike lies even more. So, when someone lies, I point it out. I do not have problems with my self-esteem during that. Yet, I would feel ashamed if I would not point out that someone lied when that becomes obvious to me."

No one likes that but your logic fails now. You give yourself the right to lie but not to others. You must understand one thing that man/woman are NOT digital ports (or, and, xor ...), electronic devices (transistors, op-amps ...) and they cannot be programmed like computers with programming languages. You are programmer and you should know that already. Someone’s lie is another’s truth, it’s humanity not yet found in the way computers work and think. Don´t try to be a computer but human.

Lajosarpad:"I have a different opinion, so it is ridiculous that you are asking me to prove something I disagree with."

Why is it ridiculous? I have asked from you, many times, if Russia started the war against Ukraine because of this nazi -issue and also because of Azov -batallion. In my opinion these Nazi and Azov issues in this thread are ridiculous alongside the disaster in Ukraine caused by Putin's RUSSIA, and not by the marginal Nazis in UKRAINE.

Lajosarpad:"If nazis are a marginal group of extremists in a country, without being supported by the government, without being armed, then the problem is manageable. Yet, in Ukraine they have a significant military power and they are armed as well. So, what will happen when the war ends? It is likely that Ukraine will lose some territory. What will these groups do then?"

Well, if there are nazi batallion fighting and dying for Ukraine against the CRIMINAL attack by Russia, I would call them as heroes, don`t you, lajosarpad (liar)? You would gladly give some territory (if you, Lajosarpad, would be an Ukrainian) to Russia to get all those nazis death, right?

Lajosarpad:"My statement about you is my understanding of your position, so it is an honest remark. I repeat: you have avoided acknowledging that the Azov batallion is a nazi group and you have always tried to shift the focus from their ideology, bringing here off-topics and whataboutisms. So, this is what I honestly think about your position:

"Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."

This is a LIE! You are accusing others about lying similar writing. So you must be a LIAR. You cannot define two completely opposite consequences of a similar act. It would be much easier for you to just admit that you made a mistake, accidentally. Only idiots will refuse to make a simple and a correct solution. Are you an idiot?


Lajosarpad:"I'm convinced about the validity of the statement above. So, there are two possibilities: either I am right or I am wrong. If I am wrong, then I have misunderstood your position. And that would mean that you have acknowledged that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."

As I already asked before from you, either you have made a mistake accidentally or intentionally? Which one it is?

"Regarding Azov, we can agree on problematic history during the time when the squad was created, including their former leaders." 5/19/2022 01:02
"As I mentioned earlier, I'm aware of problematic history of Azov, including their founders and former leaders" 5/20/2022 09:26

@lajosarpad : I will mention it one more time to make it clear. I am aware of nazi history of early years of Azov Batallion and former leaders. If you want to follow up with constructive discussion, your link
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html I find as a good basis, I think it goes in hand with what I wrote on 5/20/2022 09:26.
When I have time, I'll check rest of your links.


Regarding your sarcastic statements in discussion about old logo, wolfsangel symbol and it's connection to nazi, Azov and Russian army. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel
The page contains fair statements about Azov Battalion current logo pointing to it's nationalistic context and their explicit denial of connection to nazi symbolics. I know you don't agree. However in this case I find your statement about Russian Z symbol problematic.

"The Russian Z symbol is https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2022/03/09/ap22058740748734_custom-87743d93aca301f7caed9336987b859694566d54.jpg
and it is a different symbol, since the Z is not crossed. " lajosarpad
This argumentation is false, example is 33rd infantry division (check wolfsangel wiki page). And if you want to completely deny similarity (and become immediatelly accused from defending russian army), please check https://www.promoteukraine.org/latin-z-as-a-symbol-of-ss-and-moscow-aggression/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Villa_Arnesburg_Wolfsangel_02.JPG

"Just as disturbing, neo-Nazis are part of some of Ukraine’s growing ranks of volunteer battalions. They are battle-hardened after waging some of the toughest street fighting against Moscow-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine following Putin’s Crimean invasion in 2014. One is the Azov Battalion, founded by an avowed white supremacist who claimed Ukraine’s national purpose was to rid the country of Jews and other inferior races. In 2018, the U.S. Congress stipulated that its aid to Ukraine couldn’t be used “to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.” Even so, Azov is now an official member of the Ukraine National Guard."
"For sure, none of this disturbing context justifies the misery that has befallen Ukrainians over the past several weeks — and it’s unlikely that Putin was motivated by any of it when he launched his invasion. "

Conclusion: One can support the Ukrainian efforts for self-defense without supporting Ukrainian nazism. Sadly, other members of this discussion do not acknowledge the fact that Ukraine has a nazi issue, but nevertheless this will not make the nazi issue, out of magic, inexistent. Reality is not black & white. Reality if composite and it is an oversimplification to deny the existence of Ukraine's nazi issue because they are the right side. Ukraine already had large problems and the Russian invasion certainly did not help.

NBC news has an interesting article titled "Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't" https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

Some thoughts worth considering from it: "Not acknowledging this threat means that little is being done to guard against it."
"Putin’s destructive actions — among them the devastation of Jewish communities — make clear that he’s lying when he says his goal is to ensure anyone’s welfare."
"But even though Putin is engaging in propaganda, it’s also true that Ukraine has a genuine Nazi problem — both past and present."
"In another ominous development, Ukraine has in recent years erected a glut of statues honoring Ukrainian nationalists whose legacies are tainted by their indisputable record as Nazi proxies."
About Bandera: "Ukraine has several dozen monuments and scores of street names glorifying this Nazi collaborator, enough to require two separate Wikipedia pages"
"Another frequent honoree is Roman Shukhevych, revered as a Ukrainian freedom fighter but also the leader of a feared Nazi auxiliary police unit that the Forward notes was “responsible for butchering thousands of Jews and … Poles.”"
"Statues have also been raised for Yaroslav Stetsko, a one-time chair of the OUN, who wrote “I insist on the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine.”"
"Far-right groups have also gained political currency in the past decade, none more chilling than Svoboda (formerly the Social National Party of Ukraine), whose leader claimed the country was controlled by a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” and whose deputy used an antisemitic slur to describe Ukrainian-born Jewish actor Mila Kunis. Svoboda has sent several members to Ukraine’s Parliament, including one who called the Holocaust a “bright period” in human history, according to Foreign Policy."

@Arzi "Now you are calling somebody else writer liar."

He said that I said that I agree with everything Karjakin said. Can you point out where did I make such a statement? Because I know for a fact that I have not made such a statement. So, he was lying.

"Do you have problems with your self-esteem when you have to call your opponent a liar?"

I do not like fallacies and I dislike lies even more. So, when someone lies, I point it out. I do not have problems with my self-esteem during that. Yet, I would feel ashamed if I would not point out that someone lied when that becomes obvious to me.