Carlsen: “Karjakin wants to become a martyr”

by ChessBase
4/6/2022 – In an interview for the Norwegian newspaper VG, Magnus Carlsen talked about the recent developments involving Sergey Karjakin. The world champion clearly stated that he disagrees with his colleague’s stance, but also noted that he is not sure whether banning him from official tournaments was the right decision. | Photo: Albert Silver

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“I don’t know if it’s good or not”

Read the full article at VG.no

A number of players have already shared their opinions regarding FIDE’s decision to ban Sergey Karjakin for six months, which will likely prevent the Russian from participating in the Candidates Tournament (pending a potential appeal).

Although all condemn the Russian’s stance on the invasion, some, like Maxime Vachier-Lagrave, doubt whether banning Karjakin was the right decision. Others, like Wesley So, fully agree with the decision, while Daniil Dubov considers FIDE’s decision to be illogical — according to him, they should either not ban him at all or ban him for much longer.

Magnus Carlsen, the reigning world champion, had not talked much about the subject. In an interview for the Norwegian newspaper VG, Carlsen clearly stated that he disagrees with his colleague’s stance, but also noted that he is not sure whether banning him from official tournaments was the right decision.

Many Russians who previously either openly supported Putin or did not talk much about it have chosen to alter their views and now state that Putin has gone too far. Karjakin has gone the other way. He has increased his support for Putin. That type of attitude cannot be accepted.

[...] Of course, I do not agree with Karjakin on anything, but whether it is right to exclude people for opinions that we do not tolerate, I’m not sure. Maybe it pays off in a difficult time, but you also set a precedent for what may come later.

[...] Is it good that we are letting him have what he wants? He wants to become a martyr of the West’s “sanctions tyranny”. Now he is allowed to tell that story at home — and that works well there. We are helping him in doing so, we are letting him have what he wants. I don’t know if it’s good or not, I’m not sure.

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lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:55
@Arzi "Stepan Andrijowycz Bandera; 1 January 1909 – 15 October 1959) was a Ukrainian politician and theorist of the militant wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany."

So, Ukraine views a person who committed ethnic cleansings and collaborated with Nazi Germany as a national hero. Is there a serious nazi problem in Ukraine? Obviously, yes. Because, if nazis were marginal in Ukraine, then considering someone who committed genocide and collaborated with nazis would be impossible. Zelensky has no trouble with appearing with members of the Azov batallion at events. The organization Bandera was leading is responsible for the deaths of 50 000 - 100 000 Poles and 340 Czechs.

So, there is a death list with Hungarian names on it and someone exterminating minorities is a national hero in Ukraine. And you still choose not to acknowledge that there is a serious nazi issue in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

"The reason I`m little harsh on you with this liar -issue is our previous history in corona discussions"

Thanks for admitting that your reason to call me a liar was not that you think so, but your desire for revenge.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:55
@Arzi "Can you prove, Liar-Lajosarpad, that Russia attacked Ukraine because of nazi problems and because of Azov batallion? "

I have a different opinion, so it is ridiculous that you are asking me to prove something I disagree with.

"nazi problems never die as long as there is a single nazi alive in everywhere"

If nazis are a marginal group of extremists in a country, without being supported by the government, without being armed, then the problem is manageable. Yet, in Ukraine they have a significant military power and they are armed as well. So, what will happen when the war ends? It is likely that Ukraine will lose some territory. What will these groups do then?

They have already published a death list years ago with Hungarian names and personal data on Mitrovorec and the Ukrainian authorities started to do background checks of the people appearing on the list instead of finding and punishing the extremists for violating the basic human rights of the people the list is inciting against. This is not a marginal group, but a well-organized terror-group, backed by the Ukrainian government. https://hungarianfreepress.com/2018/10/10/has-ukraine-put-hungarians-on-a-death-list/

According to Euronews, Stepan Bandera is a national hero in Ukraine https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/03/19/in-ukraine-stepan-bandera-s-legacy-becomes-a-political-football-again. Some wiki:
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:55
@Arzi

"Lajosarpad, you accuse others of lying. Now you made a FALSE statement about me and I asked you if it was accidentally or intention. You didn't tell me your answer, so you're according to your own rules, LIAR. I will call you a liar until you give me an answer. Was the sentence you made of accidental or intentional."

My statement about you is my understanding of your position, so it is an honest remark. I repeat: you have avoided acknowledging that the Azov batallion is a nazi group and you have always tried to shift the focus from their ideology, bringing here off-topics and whataboutisms. So, this is what I honestly think about your position:

"Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."

I'm convinced about the validity of the statement above. So, there are two possibilities: either I am right or I am wrong. If I am wrong, then I have misunderstood your position. And that would mean that you have acknowledged that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine.

So, to 1. your answer boils down to "probably no" as about to question 2. you did not provide a yes or a no. So, since neither of the answers were a "yes", it is factually true that you have chosen not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine. Which means that my statement was and is correct. Logically, if it was a wrong statement, then that would mean that you have acknowledged that there are nazi groups and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine. I'm claiming that there is a very serious nazi issue in Ukraine and I'm not claiming that this was the cause for the Russian invasion.

Also, let me point out that at least until you acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group I take any accusation on your part as a compliment.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:54
@Martas Or theguardian? "Volunteers to the Ukrainian Azov battalion taking an oath of allegiance in 2014. Photograph: Valentyn Ogirenko/Reuters
Neo-Nazi groups involved in the fighting in Ukraine are actively seeking to recruit British far-right activists, a leading anti-fascist watchdog has warned" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/neo-nazi-groups-recruit-britons-to-fight-in-ukraine

Or DW? "Umland said Azov had drawn early attention by using the the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol as its emblem. "The Wolfsangel has far-right connotations, it is a pagan symbol that the SS also used," said Umland. "But it is not considered a fascist symbol by the population in Ukraine."" https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defending-mariupol/a-61151151

"Who are these guys? What is the connection to Azov Batalion?" Referring to https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3e6mNVCcAAYBBB.jpg

So you do not want to see their old logo just beside the nazi flag. Here is the source of the photo: http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html

"Again that outdated Azov logo?"

Maybe it will surprise you but the group existed even before they changed their nazi logo to another nazi logo. And here is the source of the other photo: https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/japan-removes-azov-battalion-neo-nazi-designation
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:54
@Martas "And maybe at least time to time you could try to deal with truth from the other side, ie that Azov Batalion was created after Russian army invaded Crimea, Doneck and Luhansk"

It is an obvious pattern that national tragedies are enforcing extermist groups, as the given tragedy is always giving them arguments and popularity. Yet, it would be great if we agreed that the Azov batallion is a nazi group. You seem to be wanting to deny this at all cost. It is unclear to me why you deny this obvious fact and I of course have my personal opinion about it, but it is your decision whether you maintain your shameful position.

"Which pretty much validates all effort of Azov Batalion defending it's country, no matter what you thing about it."

The Russian aggression obviously validates Ukrainian efforts for self-defense. But it does not validate the existence of nazi terror groups, like the Azov batallion. They are not forced to be nazis. They could as easily be a defensive military group without being nazis. Here's an Indian source which also considers them to be nazis: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/neo-nazis-azov-battalion-is-ukraines-controversial-custodian/articleshow/90692826.cms

Okay, you dislike veteranstoday because according to you they are unreliable. How about the New York times: "Defenders of the Ukrainian Azov Battalion, which the F.B.I. calls “a paramilitary unit” notorious for its “association with neo-Nazi ideology,” accuse us of being part of a Kremlin campaign to “demonize” the group."? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/opinion/politics/white-supremacist-terrorism.html Or CNN: "A far-right battalion has a key role in Ukraine's resistance. Its neo-Nazi history has been exploited by Putin"? https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:54
@Martas "You obviously believe keeping business with Russia is the best option or even the only valid option. I'd say it's too early to conclude anything about sanctions at the moment, we'll see in few years."

This is not a matter of belief. The proposed sanctions at this point would ruin the Hungarian energy sector. So, if we are to sanction Russia in the energy sector, then first we need to make sure that we do not shoot ourselves in the foot with unwise, irrational and hasty decisions. That means that before we impose such sanctions, we have to fulfill a project that takes several years and a lot of money. And who is going to pay for it? The Hungarian tax payers? Because if that's the intention, then I view this as the intention to make sure that Hungarians will pay the cost of the war while Russia is easily selling their oil and gas to India and China. So, while it creates a solvable problem for Russia, it creates a huge problem for Hungary. And all this is proposed without any suggestions for a solution. That's unacceptable for Hungarians. If we are wrong and there is indeed a solution that will not cause humanitarian and economic catastrophe, then I would be very interested to hear it.

"Meanwhile you can keep trying to convince the world about what is the "most important""

I can try to convince the world about such things, yet, I have never intended or attempted to convince anyone about what the "most important" problem is. I have pointed out that there are some nazi groups in Ukraine terrorizing the minorities and they are backed by the government. It is an important problem for me, while I have the impression that you do not consider this problem to be important. Yet, I have never claimed that this is the most important problem and you also know it. I explicitly said that the nazi issue in Ukraine is less important from Ukrainian perspective than the invasion.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:54
@Martas Which part of "you are right" was unclear to you? Of course I have pointed out that from Wolfsangel they changed their logo to Wolfsangel, which obviously means that they are still nazis, so the logo change proves the contrary of what you wanted to prove with it. But yes, you were right, they have changed their nazi logo to another nazi logo. It is not very relevant to the topic, but it is true that they have changed their logo and it is also true that I have mistakenly linked the older logo initially. However, this is not too important to the question. Are they still having a Wolfsangel as their logo? Yes, obviously. So they are nazis.

"Who do you think trained these guys so that they managed to hold against huge odds for such a long time? "

Stopping their training in 2018 due to they being nazis means that they were being trained in the U.S. prior to that. I thought it was clear.

"Orban's statement is a good case of truth accompanied with weird intentions."

The "weird" intention is to make an argument against the embargo affecting the energy sector. Croatia is a NATO member since 2009, it is a military ally of Hungary, so Orbán's statement may be offensive to Croatians, yet no informed person would be afraid of a Hungarian-Croatian military conflict. As a result, the "weird" intentions you speak about simply do not exist.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:53
@Martas Interestingly you claim that the sources I have provided contain obviously false accusations. So, was the House of Representatives mistakenly identifying the Azov batallion as a "neo-nazi" group? Do you claim that they were all wrong with all the information they have got from their specialists and informators and you, Martas, a commentator on a chess site know this better?

Haaretz was also wrong? You know better? I have reasons to doubt that, but you always have the opportunity to point out how the claim that the Azov batallion is a nazi group, a statement that many people in the world consider to be established fact is "obviously wrong". So, do you have some information that points out that the Azov batallion is not a nazi group? Or are you just making some baseless claims in order to dismiss anything that point out that the Azov batallion is a nazi group?

"And you provided links where you rely on opinion of others, without understanding what is the basis."

Maybe you can explain what is the basis, maybe you can enlighten us all. So, your favorite source of information that you repeatedly quote, wikipedia identifies the Azov batallion as a neo-nazi group, it says that it: "is a neo-Nazi unit of the National Guard of Ukraine based in Mariupol in the coastal region of the Sea of Azov, from which it derives its name." So, does this mean that they are not nazis? Or is Wikipedia suddenly unreliable if it calls the Azov batallion a nazi group?

"When I pointed you to your mistake, you were not even able to accept it."

You know that the above is a lie, which I treat now as your signature. My reaction to the fact that you have pointed out that the logo I have provided initially was outdated was: "You said they have changed it. And guess what: you are right! They changed it to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg"
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/23/2022 09:53
@Martas "It took several weeks until you managed to admit that Karjakin's opinions might validate some consequences."

Dude, everything one says and does has some consequences. That was never debated between us. For instance you may dislike Karjakin as a direct result of what he has said. BUT: FIDE is not entitled to inflict the "consequences" it has inflicted. I remain unconvinced about the validity of the Orwellian world that FIDE aims to bring to us, where a federation entitles itself to decide what one is ought to think.

"With your repeated claims of lying, trolling etc I lost that hope."

It is very unfortunate that you have lied about my statements and intentions earlier. I will not be sorry for pointing that out and if you do it again, I will point it out again.

"You have provided plethora of sources containing obviously false accusation, couple of incidents (in some cases connection with Azov is unclear) which at very best show signs of nationalizm, not nacism."

Dude, I have brought here a plethora of sourced quotes in support of my position as well as logos, photos, events. Your "answer" to them is that they are "sources containing obviously false accusation", however, you get into self-contradiction, since, if you consider wikipedia to be a quotable source on the one hand, then you should either accept the quotability of wikipedia when it doesn't support your position or you should point out why the sources used by wikipedia are "source containing obviously false accusation". To me it is not obvious at all that the accusation is false. For instance "In 2018, the U.S. House of Representatives again passed a provision blocking any training of Azov members by American forces, citing its neo-Nazi connections." https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 07:43
@lajosarpad : "The Azov batallion is a verifiably nazi group. They commit atrocities (see https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/03/05/200-buried-alive-azov-brigades-reign-of-terror-in-ukrainian-civilian-hostages-in-mariupol/)"
Do you really want to consider famous antisemitic and conspiracy theory site as a valid source of information regarding nacizm???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Today

Let's check the rest .... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3e6mNVCcAAYBBB.jpg ..... random twitter image with unknown source? That's your way of providing proofs? Who are these guys? What is the connection to Azov Batalion? Those 2 flags at the back? Again that outdated Azov logo? And why are these proud nazis hiding their faces? Are you sure there is no Z symbol on that car on left side of the picture?

https://media-en.almayadeen.net/archive/image/2022/4/9/6190df5d-6564-4abd-bb3a-008e1cf3e65d.jpg?v=3 .... could you remind me where I might have seen the logo on uniform of that guy? Sounds familiar from past searching through links you gave me, I just can't find at the moment it's connection to Azov Batalion. The date 9/4/2022 - weren't Azov Batalion guys already locked in Azovstal complex at that point? That clean building in the background doesn't match too much with satelite pictures of Mauriupol on that day.

What are you trying to achieve? April Fool's Day is over. You should follow your own proposal and say the truth.
arzi arzi 5/23/2022 01:04
To Lajosarpad (liar): The reason I`m little harsh on you with this liar -issue is our previous history in corona discussions. Also there you were calling me dishonest (means also liar) and trying to prove (in vain) it. Now you are calling somebody else writer liar. Do you have problems with your self-esteem when you have to call your opponent a liar?
arzi arzi 5/23/2022 08:01
By the way Liar-Lajosarpad, nazi problems never die as long as there is a single nazi alive in everywhere. Even if there is only one nazi in Hungary, they have a serious nazi issue in Hungary.

Hungary 10 million people and one nazi is 0,00001 %.
Hungary 10 million people and 500 nazis is 0,005 %.
Hungary 10 million people and 50 000 nazis 0,5%.

If we look at those numbers in percentage they seem to be so small and still even one nazi is a serious issue, right?
arzi arzi 5/23/2022 07:37
lajosarpad:"Whenever Ukraine's nazi issue was brought into the discussion, you tried to shift the topic to Hungary, you called it a joke and lately you avoided answering SunriseK's simple question about this very topic and "responded" with a counter-question. It is possible that you acknowledged that there is a serious nazi issue in Ukraine in the form of the Azov batallion and other groups and I just didn't see it. In that case I will publicly acknowledge that I was wrong about that. But, in order to do so, please answer two simple questions with a yes or a no (you can add an explanation if you want, but an obvious yes or an obvious no is absolutely needed if you want me to acknowledge that I was wrong about you):

1. Do you acknowledge that Ukraine has a serious nazi issue?
2. Do you acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group?"

Lajosarpad, you accuse others of lying. Now you made a FALSE statement about me and I asked you if it was accidentally or intention. You didn't tell me your answer, so you're according to your own rules, LIAR. I will call you a liar until you give me an answer. Was the sentence you made of accidental or intentional.

1. Serious, I don`t know. Probably no. Russia did not attack Ukraine because of the Nazis in Ukraine.
2. Acknowledge, Azov batallion is a nazi group? I don`t know. How many are there in Azov batallion? 50 million Ukrainian Nazis? 50 000? 500? Russia did not attack Ukraine because of Azov batallion.

Can you prove, Liar-Lajosarpad, that Russia attacked Ukraine because of nazi problems and because of Azov batallion?
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 01:03
"My proposal for everyone is to say the truth." - lajosarpad
"if they hadn't taken it away from us, we would also have a port" - Vktor Orban
"The statement aimed to point out the cynicism of the leaders of these countries" - lajosarpad

Orban's statement is a good case of truth accompanied with weird intentions. And it obviously managed to hit it's target at home, it's hard to hide sentiment and anger raised by that statement. You obviously believe keeping business with Russia is the best option or even the only valid option. I'd say it's too early to conclude anything about sanctions at the moment, we'll see in few years.
Meanwhile you can keep trying to convince the world about what is the "most important", even when it is - as a matter of fact - main narrative used by Russian goverment and pro-russian trolls to provide reasoning for all Russian crimes in Ukraine.
And maybe at least time to time you could try to deal with truth from the other side, ie that Azov Batalion was created after Russian army invaded Crimea, Doneck and Luhansk (you might consider as well direct lies of Putin about no presence of Russian army in Ukraine). Which pretty much validates all effort of Azov Batalion defending it's country, no matter what you thing about it. Putin provided main support of PR of Azov Batalion both in good and bad sense.
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 01:00
@lajosarpad: "I believe you that you are not able to do that research. But others are able. I have provided lots of factual proofs about Azov. You choose not to acknowledge it."
"You know perfectly well that a plethora of sourced quotes were shared here already, so it is quite obvious that the arguments were not limited to their logo."

You have provided plethora of sources containing obviously false accusation, couple of incidents (in some cases connection with Azov is unclear) which at very best show signs of nationalizm, not nacism. And you provided links where you rely on opinion of others, without understanding what is the basis. So yes, your argumentation was not limited to their logo, however validity of the rest is let's say questionable.
And even for the logo you provided outdated version where connection to nazis was much clearer (direct copy of black sun, while wolfsangel Z is reversed, differently oriented and struck differently). When I pointed you to your mistake, you were not even able to accept it.

"As usual, you ignore the most important sources. Like the USA not allowing them to train Americans because they are nazis."
Who do you think trained these guys so that they managed to hold against huge odds for such a long time?
Martas Martas 5/23/2022 12:59
@lajosarpad: "And of course, the existence of nazi groups in Ukraine does not validate the war and does not exempt Karjakin from bearing the consequences of what he says and does." 5/19/2022 06:54

It took several weeks until you managed to admit that Karjakin's opinions might validate some consequences.

"Supporting Russia or the president is not a call for violence, nor for crime, even if we consider Russia's actions to be containing war crimes." 4/9/2022 01:20

No matter how ridiculous this statement is, I have expected you are capable of understanding flaws in your thinking. With your repeated claims of lying, trolling etc I lost that hope. The rest I take as a try to find out how far you able to get with your conclusions.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/21/2022 07:22
@Martas "so in other words it's all fault Ukraine, they should excuse for being attacked and prosecute it's own army, no matter that main war crimes were commit by Russians"

Nobody said that.

"Most important is your truth about nazis."

It's not "my" truth. Truth is objective and it is often verifiable. The Azov batallion is a verifiably nazi group. They commit atrocities (see https://www.veteranstoday.com/2022/03/05/200-buried-alive-azov-brigades-reign-of-terror-in-ukrainian-civilian-hostages-in-mariupol/) wear nazi symbols (see https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3e6mNVCcAAYBBB.jpg) and act exactly like nazis (see https://media-en.almayadeen.net/archive/image/2022/4/9/6190df5d-6564-4abd-bb3a-008e1cf3e65d.jpg?v=3).

So, the Azov batallion is a nazi group, independently of whether you ever acknowledge that.

This of course does not validate the Russian invasion, the agressor here is Russia, obviously. Yet, it is quite a primitive and intellectually dishonest position to whitewash nazis.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 06:14
L.Á. "Yet, Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."
@Arzi "Lajosarpad, you seem to use the words, "lie/liar" quite often against other people and still you don`t notice that same in yourself. Is your sentence, above, a lie and are you a liar or did you do that just accidentally?"

Whenever Ukraine's nazi issue was brought into the discussion, you tried to shift the topic to Hungary, you called it a joke and lately you avoided answering SunriseK's simple question about this very topic and "responded" with a counter-question. It is possible that you acknowledged that there is a serious nazi issue in Ukraine in the form of the Azov batallion and other groups and I just didn't see it. In that case I will publicly acknowledge that I was wrong about that. But, in order to do so, please answer two simple questions with a yes or a no (you can add an explanation if you want, but an obvious yes or an obvious no is absolutely needed if you want me to acknowledge that I was wrong about you):

1. Do you acknowledge that Ukraine has a serious nazi issue?
2. Do you acknowledge that the Azov batallion is a nazi group?
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 06:12
@lajosarpad : so in other words it's all fault Ukraine, they should excuse for being attacked and prosecute it's own army, no matter that main war crimes were commit by Russians. Most important is your truth about nazis.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 06:09
@Martas Those people are free to form that political opinion. Anti-nationalism is a large international movement. When I'm saying that someone is not a nazi, I'm not doing it to defend him/her. It is a factual statement. Russian communists using red flags and founding people's republics are part of the radical left. They are obviously not nazis, nevertheless they have attacked Ukraine. Also, there are Russian nationalists who are not necessarily nazis, who are also attacking Ukraine. So, nazi is a very specific word with a concrete meaning. It is correct to call someone a "nazi" if and only if that's accurate. If the person is a non-nazi nationalist or a non-nazi socialist, then it is inaccurate to say that he is a nazi even if he is worse than a nazi. Nazi is not synonymous with "good" or "bad". It is a political ideology which has a history of extermination and conquest. But it is not the only ideology leading to extremism.

As about my accusations: you have claimed that I said that I agree with everything Karjakin says. Since I tend to evaluate every thought separately, I would never say that I agree with someone on "everything". You know it was a false statement and you knew it was a false statement at the time of its writing as well. So it is a logical consequence that first I raise objections to it and if you maintain that statement, then I treat you like I treat trolls. That's also true about the statement according to which I "defended" Jobbik. You yourself said that some groups are worse than nazis. Jobbik is such a group, without a backbone, licking the boot of others, betraying their allies regularly and constantly lying. Nazis are extremists, but at least they tend to be honest. So, Jobbik, which pretended to be nazi and then pretended to be conservative while serving the left is a party which has no honor. So, when I identify them as an ex-nazi party, I'm not saying that in their defense. I'm saying that with the aim to clarify an inaccuracy.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 06:04
@Martas "If all argumentation is down to azov logo, then what is your proposal?"

You know perfectly well that a plethora of sourced quotes were shared here already, so it is quite obvious that the arguments were not limited to their logo. Why do you use a false statement as your premise? My proposal for everyone is to say the truth. The Azov batallion is a nazi group. No need to whitewash it.

"Or do you want to say that Azov batalion should not be allowed to defend it's country and should immediately give up?"

I believe that the Ukrainian political leadership could easily solve this problem if they wanted. They could tell the Azov members that they are not allowed to use nazi symbols, because they shame the Ukrainian effort for self-defense. Also, if there were war crimes by members of the Azov batallion, then Ukraine could prosecute them.

"What is the aim of all that witch-hunting?"

Calling a spade a "spade" is not witch-hunting.

"But it brings some light to some of your argumentation regarding problems of Hungarian minority in Ukraine."

You can think what you want about me. That will not change my opinion that oppressing Hungarian, Romanian, Polish, Ruthenian and Russian minorities for not being Ukrainians is unnecessary and wrong.

"in eyes of many people non-socialist nationalists can be much worse then nazis"
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 03:47
@lajosarpad : "And of course, the existence of nazi groups in Ukraine does not validate the war and does not exempt Karjakin from bearing the consequences of what he says and does. Yet, I find his exclusion from the world championship candidates Orwellian"
Ok, this statement I find as a fair outcome. I believe that in many years when the conflict is solved people will be sad about excluding Karjakin, similar as they are now about Alekhine.
I don't mind you representing view and interests of your country. So I don't take personally your accusations, in the end your words tell much more about your perception of world then about myself.
Regarding our disagreement in nazi/nationalist topic, in eyes of many people non-socialist nationalists can be much worse then nazis, Russia is giving proof of this time to time. I wish you and your country not to be seen this way.
arzi arzi 5/20/2022 01:34
Lajosarpad:"Yet, Arzi chooses not to acknowledge that there are nazi groups in Ukraine and there is a nazi issue in Ukraine."

Lajosarpad, you seem to use the words, "lie/liar" quite often against other people and still you don`t notice that same in yourself. Is your sentence, above, a lie and are you a liar or did you do that just accidentally?
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 12:35
@lajosarpad: "The statement aimed to point out the cynicism of the leaders of these countries, which were taking part of the dismemberment of Hungary"
I'm not going to express my thoughts about using word cynicism in this context. But it brings some light to some of your argumentation regarding problems of Hungarian minority in Ukraine. As well as to your separation between nationalists and nazis, no matter how correct it is from linguistics point of view.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 10:20
@lajosarpad : If all argumentation is down to azov logo, then what is your proposal?
Change the logo and all is fine? You could ask russian army to let azov folks go home, change uniform and then come back and follow up fighting, I don't believe it would work out.
Or do you want to say that Azov batalion should not be allowed to defend it's country and should immediately give up? Or should all members commit suicide and the world will be better?
What is the aim of all that witch-hunting?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 09:57
@Martas

Wolfsangel: https://w7.pngwing.com/pngs/356/719/png-transparent-ukraine-wolfsangel-azov-battalion-all-ukrainian-union-svoboda-symbol-symbol-ukraine-wolfsangel-azov-battalion.png
Azov emblem: https://cdn-japantimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/np_file_149391.jpeg

It is the same thing!

The Russian Z symbol is https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2022/03/09/ap22058740748734_custom-87743d93aca301f7caed9336987b859694566d54.jpg

and it is a different symbol, since the Z is not crossed. If you would want to point to extremism on the Russian side, then the red stars on their aircrafts and the red flags in the hands of their soldiers as well as the "people's democratic republics" are also extremist symbols. They are communist symbols. You are welcome!

"In general this is really poor argumentation for neverending shouting regarding Azov and Nazi."

Is it neverending? Then why is the Azov batallion not changing its emblem to something non-nazi? Why are they okay wearing nazi symbols?

https://images.unian.net/photos/2019_10/1571633211-1782.jpg?0.11160926184354203
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 09:56
@lajosarpad : problem of logo is that everybody sees there what he wants to see. As far as I know, main problem with the old logo was nazi's black sun, which the new logo doesn't have. Regarding similarity with wolfsangel logo, I think Russian's 'Z' symbol is a bit closer to it.
Do you want to follow russian logic that jewish people are antisemitists? There are logo similarities of the same character.
In general this is really poor argumentation for neverending shouting regarding Azov and Nazi.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 09:54
lajosarpad : "Is this a false statement? I think this is a perfectly accurate statement"
No, it's not a false statement. But it has many interpretations, some of them could be really ugly. Potentially when nationalistic part of National-conservative thinking wins against conservative part.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 09:46
@Martas

"there is no simple yes/no, maybe for you or lajosarpad."

Yes, there is. The Azov batallion is either a nazi group or not. Since you were arguing against them being nazis, it is clear that your position is that they are not nazis and you side with them. "Nazi" is a well-defined word. All one has to do in order to determine whether a group is nazi is to check the main attributes. Are they wearing nazi symbols? Yes! It is in their official emblem. So it is clear to anyone that they are nazis.

"- Azov Batalion - part of Ukrainian army which tries to deny all connections to Azov Movement. "

But their current emblem is still a nazi symbol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg

"Regarding current Azov batalion and relation to nazi-thinking, this is really hard to asses, you would need to be able to read mind of those people."

You can look at the symbols they are wearing. They are wearing a nazi symbol as their official emblem.

It is difficult to grasp why you are not acknowledging the obvious fact that the Azov batallion is a nazi group. The vast majority of the Ukrainian defensive forces are patriots who defend their country. But this one -Azov- is a nazi group. https://cdn-japantimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/np_file_149391.jpeg

It is unnecessary to act blindly about this, since this fact does not validate the invasion and Russia is still the aggressor.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 09:32
@Martas it was not meant to be a territorial claim. It was a statement that aimed to be an argument against the sanctions, outlining that

1. Hungary has to solve some real problems if this sanction packet passes
2. The problems Hungary has to solve were caused by the very countries that are now trying to push Hungary into this problem (France, Britain, Italy, USA, Belgium, Poland, Romania, the former Yugoslavia and the former Czehoslovakia)

The statement aimed to point out the cynicism of the leaders of these countries, which were taking part of the dismemberment of Hungary and now act as if they would not understand why Hungary objects the current sanctions.

I'm convinced that Hungary is not going to attack Croatia.

"if they hadn't taken it away from us, we would also have a port" O.V.

Is this a false statement? I think this is a perfectly accurate statement.

The Hungarian Prime Minister represents Hungarian interests. Since the proposed sanction is opposing Hungarian interests, the Hungarian Prime Minister argues against it.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 09:26
@SunriseK: there is no simple yes/no, maybe for you or lajosarpad.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm aware of problematic history of Azov, including their founders and former leaders, Azov movement and Azov Batallion being one group at that point. When Azov Batallion became part of Ukrainian army, those 2 split.
- Azov Movement - neonazi group with marginal support (less then 2%) in last elections. Former leaders and founders of Azov Batallion (Azov veterans) are part of it.
- Azov Batalion - part of Ukrainian army which tries to deny all connections to Azov Movement.

I'm not going to write much about Azov Movement, as a political party they have marginal support, similar to neo-nazi parties in other countries.
Regarding current Azov batalion and relation to nazi-thinking, this is really hard to asses, you would need to be able to read mind of those people. I accept there might be problem with individuals, similar to such problem in other armies, especially the Russian one and reportedly those of DNR/DLR.

Overall as I mentioned earlier, I agree there is nazi problem in Ukraine, however I see Russian army being main part of it.
Martas Martas 5/20/2022 08:44
@lajosarpad : I completely understand Hungarian needs and problems with loosing russian gas, Hungary is not alone with these problems, also Hungary is not the only EU country without access to the sea.
You completely missed point of my question and answered something different. You should be aware of Croatian protests against Orban's note about sea, as it is as a matter of fact also territorial claim with nationalistic sentiment as Hungary lost that territory 100 years ago. And it was done in direct connection to Ukraine conflict where Russia occupies territory which it lost 20 years ago.
"if they hadn't taken it away from us, we would also have a port" - Vktor Orban
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 02:38
@Martas However, there are two large problems with that. First, such a project would involve an infrastructural change that takes 3-5 years to be completed and in the meantime we need Russian gas, so an embargo on oil and gas on Russia starting from tomorrow would cause humanitarian catastrophe in our country. Second, there are huge costs in completing this project. Who is going to pay for it? Hungarian tax payers? But that would mean that a Hungarian problem is created by Brussels without offering a solution. The West has a history of creating Hungarian problems and we are simply not interested in it.

By the way: Russia clearly did not collapse under the sanctions so far and the energy embargo that the west wants to force everyone to comply to would result in Russia selling its resources to China and India. Russia would also feel the sanctions, true, but Europe would be in massive trouble as a result. It is difficult to understand why are sanctions proposed in the energy sector that would hurt Europe more than Russia. There were other, more sensible sanctions proposed and EU countries voted those sanctions. But the energy sector's embargo would spell tragedy in Europe.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/20/2022 02:38
@Martas I forgot to answer your question: "How conservative is recent Orban's note about loosing access to sea in context of discussing sanctions due to war?"

Conservativism is an ideology, while national interests are very concrete. The realm of national interest is largely determined by complex calculations being done by specialists of different fields. If we cannot buy Russian gas and oil, then the effects of this policy can be calculated and forecasted by specialists.

This is not an abstract ideological remark. The reality is very physical. We either have oil and gas or not. If we have no access to these resources, then we are facing a humanitarian and monetary catastrophe in our country, which is unacceptable. So, it is an imperative to have access to these resources. Currently we import oil and gas from Russia. The EU wants to convince us to stop doing so. However, if we are not to buy Russian gas and oil, then where would we obtain it from? We do not have sources of these resources in our country and we do not have access to seas either in order to import them (since 4th of June, when the west decided to distribute 66% of our country between our neighbors, for which we will be "grateful" forever). As a result, if we are not to buy Russian gas, then we need to build another pipe in order to import oil and gas from other sources.
SunriseK SunriseK 5/20/2022 12:40
@arzi: I asked you a very simple thing that could be summarized like this: are there neonazis groups in Ukraine or not? Instead of answering, you said "I’ll give you a counter-question instead of starting to google the names you enter."
No, this is not the correct way a fair person would talk! I gave you a simple question, which can be answered just with "Yes" or "No". Some posts before, you said “Nazis in Ukraine? What a joke.”, so you should already have an opinion about my question, without needing at all to google anything. Then first give your simple answer to my simple question and after that I could consider your "counter-question" or anything else from you.
And about fingers... you are clearly showing that you didn't understand my proverb at all, because you are insisting to tell not relevant things about the title of this thread.

@Martas: you said "solving questions like this as a precondition for resolving the conflict means holding the longest conflict ever" and "answer to your 'most important' question requires much more research then you are able to do on your own".
So, like arzi, you are refusing to answer a very simple question: are there neonazi groups in Ukraine or not?
No research need to be done, you have just to tell your personal opinion with "Yes" or "No". For example, even more simpler question: is Azov Battalion a neonazi group or not? Yes or no? And you already did tesearches about that wikipedia page, so you have no need to do anything else, just your simple opinion, without hiding behind ridiculous excuses (which are also much longer than "Yes" or "No", LOL!).
And btw, I don't think at all that possible existence of neonazis in Ukraine could be an excuse for an invasion! ;-)
I just want to understand if you (and arzi) are considering Azov Battalion (and possibly other groups/people that I cited) a neonazi group or not. Both of you talked really a 'book' about Karjakin and now you are unable to give a simple "Yes" or "No"??? :-D
Martas Martas 5/19/2022 07:55
@lajosarpad "Who said that the reason for the attack is the nazis?"
Putin did, his propaganda did. And so was the reasoning of Karjakin.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:56
@Martas "And no matter how crazy you went because of this now, you did defend Jobbik afterwards."

Again, this is a lie. I am saying they are no longer nazis because that is the truth, not because I would want to defend them. You lie. The sky is blue. The grass is green. Water is liquid. And Martas lies.

"so far it was only outdated emblem of Azov."

Yes, I have shared an outdated emblem initially. This is the current one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg

they have kept the Wolfsangel. They have changed their logo from Wolfsangel to Wolfsangel. Maybe when you stated that they have changed their emblem you could have also mentioned that they kept the Wolfsangel, the symbol that proves they are nazis. But that would be too honest, so it does not fit you style.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:56
@Martas "this was not meant to connect you with Jobbik, it is just a fact that your lecture about etymology of word "nazi" pretty much fits to evolution of that party."

I don't care what your intention was. I'm not a mind reader and I do not claim to be one. The problem with the above is that you assume that I had some intention of whitewashing Jobbik from naziism when I have described the difference between naziism and nationalism. So, in the above you assume that I'm not a truth seeker. This is why I call this a lie. You have absolutely no reason to assume that and you made the statement above with ill-faith, ignoring any rational basis of the contrary.

"The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of socialism, as an alternative to both Marxist international socialism and free-market capitalism. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Even your favorite source of information describes that National Socialism is a nationalist redefinition of socialism. Which means that socialism existed prior to that in a non-nationalist form and nationalism existed before in a non-socialist form. Combining the two led to national-socialism, which is the exact same thing as nazism. So it is factually accurate that every nationalist who is not socialist is not nazi and it is also factually true that every socialist who is not nationalist is not a nazi. And it is not "my" definition. It is the generally accepted definition. Are all the politologists in the world defining nazism in a manner "to exclude Jobbik"? I don't think so. Words have definitions. Words have meanings. Nazi means national AND socialist. In the case of the Azov batallion, seeing their symbolism we see that they openly and proudly wear nazi symbols. So it is clear that they are nazis.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:55
@Martas I have said the following:

"This is Azov's emblem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg"

You said they have changed it. And guess what: you are right! They changed it to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#/media/File:AZOV_logo.svg

Which still has the Wolfsangel on it, modified slightly to resemble a swastika. Congratulations! So, Azov changed its emblem from Wolfsangel to Wolfsangel. Very "good" argument indeed, as you have just proven that the people you try to whitewash are indeed nazis. Bravo!

"Fair enough. If you agree something is not a valid reason for attacking the country, do you consider it as a valid reason for supporting such attack or accepting such support?"

No. I have stated from the start that I disagree with Karjakin on many points. I support his right to express his views. But I do not support his views. While he is correct in pointing out that there is a nazi issue in Ukraine, IMHO he is wrong when he sees this as a justification for attacking it. Another example: I clearly disagree with many statements that you have made. But if someone wanted to silence you by force or by punishment, I would argue for your right to express your views, no matter how wrong (I think) you are. So I respect your freedom to say what you think even though I do not consider your comments to be decent, especially because you are misrepresenting what I said. This is why I treat you like a troll. So, this is the deal: you are free to misrepresent what I said and I am free to expose you for it.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 5/19/2022 06:55
@Martas "But in case of Ukraine in your eyes there is no difference"

There are non-nazi nationalists in Ukraine and there are nazis. The Azov batallion is a nazi group. They use nazi symbols to this day, so this is a pretty obvious fact. So, it is quite baseless to claim that I would ignore the existence of non-nazi nationalists in Ukraine, since I have never made such a claim. In other words: you lie. Again.

"every sign of nationalism is for you a clear prove of being nazi."

Of course this is a lie. I have never made such a statement about Ukrainians who defend their country in general. In fact I called them heroic in many threads. But, the Azov batallion wears nazi symbols. So it is visible and obvious that they are nazi. Would a non-nazi wear a nazi symbol on his uniform? No. A non-nazi would fight in the Ukrainian military as a soldier and would not represent nazism. So, members of the Azov batallion are nazis. Members of the Ukrainian military are diverse in their world view with one common element: willing to defend their country. So, there is a clear distinction between nazi and nationalist, independently of which country we speak about. In Ukraine there are lots of non-nazi nationalists who defend their country. And there are a few groups of nazi extremists, members of terror groups, backed by the government. You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that. So I conclude that you are a nazi supporter who lies about nazis in Ukraine.