FIDE Ethics imposes a six-month ban on Karjakin

by ChessBase
3/21/2022 – In reaction to public statements made by Sergey Karjakin about the war in Ukraine, the FIDE and Ethics and Disciplinary Commission banned Karjakin for six months "from participating as a player in any FIDE rated chess competition, taking effect from the date of this decision, 21 March 2022." Therefore, Karjakin will not be able to play in the Candidates Tournament that is scheduled to take place from 16 June to 7 July in Madrid, Spain. Grandmaster Sergei Shipov, who regularly works as a commentator, was not banned by FIDE for his statements about the war because "in comparison with Sergey Karjakin, Sergei Shipov is considerably less known and has, therefore, a less powerful platform." | Picture: Sergey Karjakin, Sergei Shipov | Picture: FIDE
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FIDE Press release, 21 March 2022

The FIDE Ethics and Disciplinary Commission (EDC) has reached a verdict on the case 2/2022, relating to public statements by grandmasters Sergey Karjakin (FIDE ID 14109603) and Sergei Shipov (FIDE ID 4113624).

The EDC First Instance Chamber, formed by Yolander Persaud (Guyana), Ravindra Dongre (India), and Johan Sigeman (Sweden) as Chairperson, unanimously decided as follows:

Sergey Karjakin is found guilty of breach of article 2.2.10 of the FIDE Code of Ethics, and is sanctioned to a worldwide ban of six months from participating as a player in any FIDE rated chess competition, taking effect from the date of this decision, 21 March 2022.

Sergei Shipov is found not guilty of breach of article 2.2.10 of the FIDE Code of Ethics. 

The article 2.2.10 of the Code of Ethics reads as follows:

“(…) Disciplinary action in accordance with this Code of Ethics will be taken in cases of occurrences which cause the game of chess, FIDE or its federations to appear in an unjustifiable unfavorable light and in this way damage its reputation.”

“The statements by Sergey Karjakin on the ongoing military conflict in Ukraine has led to a considerable number of reactions on social media and elsewhere, to a large extent negative towards the opinions expressed by Sergey Karjakin”, reads point 7.37 of the 10-page document where the EDC explains the reasons and legal background for its decision.

It continues: “A necessary condition for the establishment of guilt is that the statements have reached the public domain. This concept, with respect to disrepute clauses in sport, is not the world at large but the sport in which the accused engages, such as chess. Information concerning the accused's conduct which is not published in the media, but which can be learnt without a great deal of labour by persons engaged in the chess world or a relevant part of it, will be in the public domain and satisfy the public exposure element. The EDC Chamber is comfortably satisfied that this condition is fulfilled in this case.”

“The EDC Chamber finds, against the background given above, on the standard of comfortable satisfaction that the statements of Sergey Karjakin, which, by his own choice and presentation, can be connected to the game of chess, damage the reputation of the game of chess and/or FIDE. The likelihood that these statements will damage the reputation of Sergey Karjakin personally is also considerable”, it concludes.

The Chamber explains its decision to not sanction Sergei Shipov with the following argument: “In comparison with Sergey Karjakin, Sergei Shipov is considerably less known and has, therefore, a less powerful platform. The statements made by Sergei Shipov are also of a slightly different and less provocative character than the ones made by Karjakin. In an overall evaluation of the potential negative impact on the game of chess and/or FIDE, the EDC Chamber is not sufficiently convinced that Sergei Shipov’s statements qualify as a breach of article 2.2.10.”

Sergey Karjakin has been advised by EDC that this decision may be appealed to the Appeal Chamber of the EDC by giving written notice of such appeal to the FIDE Secretariat within 21 days from the date upon which this decision is received. The notice of appeal must clearly state all the grounds for the appeal. Failing the due exercise of this right of appeal, the EDC Chamber's decision will become final.

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Martas Martas 4/8/2022 09:51
@oxygenes
"I to contrary say, that if most of peoples (citisens of EU too) will know truth, this fact will accelerate end of war.
Because they will start support correct (Russian or Ukrainian) side."
Thank you for unmasking yourself. So that was the point of bringing Bandera topic into the discussion in your comment from 3/24, your statement clearly shows which side is yours, there was no point in mentioning the Ukrainian alternative. And i understand your point, supporting your side would finish current war quicker. And would have been cheaper, even though only temporarily. Asking about probable follow up of this doesn't make much sense, right?
There are good reasons why to study history. Propaganda wants to pick up concrete facts supporting it's targets. And it's doing it by spreading fear and anger, provoking revenge, like you are trying to do by bringing Bandera topic into discussion. However main point of studying history is to prevent repeating same mistakes. If you would really want to prevent repeating genocides or death camps, you first need to understand reasons which lead to this. And main reasons for things like this happening is homofobic propaganda spreading fear and anger, which brings excuses for unthinkable behaviour of individuals. This was the case of nazi Germany and as it can be seen nowadays, it is the case of Russian army today.
Also history shows behaviour after war, murders of opponents with or even without excuses is nothing exceptional, especially in case of KGB, Alekhine is a good example for chess world.
oxygenes oxygenes 4/7/2022 05:59
@Martas
Almost every your answer is like "It seems ..." advocating Bandera side by one or another way.
I to contrary say, that if most of peoples (citisens of EU too) will know truth, this fact will accelerate end of war.
Because they will start support correct (Russian or Ukrainian) side.

"Impact of Hitler and Stalin on damages in WWII and preceding decade was much higher then impact of Ukrainian leaders, it's different scale."
It is not quite correct, you again try rip some part from bigger corpus. Here as usualy is valid principle of prevention. "It is cheaper prevent creation of the fire, than extinguish it."
France and GB could easy prevent growth of Hitlers power, when he was weak. It was their duty in view of WW1 peace agreements, but they failed many times. In direct consequences they betrayed their allies. So their impact for WW2 is much bigger than they (and probably you too) want admit.
But Bandera and his followers took side of nazi Germany and if you try marginalize numers of victims in German concentrations and death camps due to slow down of speed of deliberate these camps, then you try advocate nazi Germany too.
You can try find German orPolish archive documents, if you do not trust Russian.
Martas Martas 4/7/2022 11:07
@oxygenes : What is the truth? It seems you want to pickup only some parts of it, that's quite common way of spreading propaganda with intention to achieve your goals. There are well known issues from the past which you highlight, possibly overestimate Bandera's impact on damage caused by Germany. There are other well known related facts in the history which you constantly ignore. Impact of Hitler and Stalin on damages in WWII and preceding decade was much higher then impact of Ukrainian leaders, it's different scale. Yet you want to solve conflict between Russia and Ukraine by ritual sacrifice of scapegoat? You have no chance in solving that conflict by blaming Bandera and without including Stalin, if you try to do that you end up on the side of Russian propaganda.
oxygenes oxygenes 4/6/2022 06:01
@Martas
"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08989620212968"
You show exactly, what i said. There is nothing new in this site. And why do you miss DoubleSpeak technique?
Your link - "https://okupacijasmuzejs.lv/en/news/a-monument-to-latvian-legionnaires-and-freedom-was-unveiled-in-belgium-649/" - is clean example of this.
No matter, which side will be supported by truth, in consequences opposite side will have no arguements but lies.
If the more and more peoples will know thruth about Bandera and his followers (about other crimes too in general), then the more peoples can do correct decision and the sooner will this war ends. And you claim, that i probably want prolong war. Can you explain it?
Martas Martas 4/4/2022 12:14
@lajosarpad:

- "Banning a party as something which committed treason" - I don't read Zelenksy's reasoning this exact way. "Therefore, the national security and defence council decided, given the full-scale war unleashed by Russia, and the political ties that a number of political structures have with this state, to suspend any activity of a number of political parties for the period of martial law"
- "labels all members and supporters of the party" - the only sanctioned person was Kyva, all other deputies stayed in the parliament and were able to form new group
- "deprives the representatives of the party of their living" - again, sanctions were applied only against problematic representatives. Plus the argument sounds quite silly considering millions which lost their home and especially considering those who still "live" in Mauriupol
- war crimes in Ukraine - fair trial related to this subject is definitely needed. So far it's a lot of accusations from both sides of the conflict

Yes, I agree decision was autocratic, given the war state nothing exceptional since Rome times.

Regarding logic of banning parties - it's always parties causing damage. National Corps didn't have the opportunity, their support is small. Also their program explicitly rejects old Hitler's ideas.
Far-left, completely different stories, it's decades of damage which led to "decommunisation". Also a reason, why for Ukrainians living under control of Russian Army is no longer an option and why many of them would fight them until last man.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 01:18
@Martas "Denying party on it's own is nothing against individuals in those parties."

Banning a party as something which committed treason:

- labels all members and supporters of the party
- deprives the representatives of the party of their living
- creates the opportunity for the future to prosecute and persecute the members of the party for committing treason (since if there was treason committed by the party, then the treason was committed by an individual or a group of individuals)
- deprives all supporters of the party from political representation

So, while you are correct that prior the war such acts were committed by the judiciary, now it was committed by autocratic means.

Also, I do not quite understand what logic has led the Ukraine to ban the far-left, but to not ban the far-right. Was the Azov battalion not committing war crimes? How come that its political representation, the National Corps is still legally functioning? How come that this is not the 12th party being banned, when this party obviously, provably and verifiably committed war crimes?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 01:18
@Martas I speak about 11 parties banned by the president. Focusing on a single one of them, picked by you would mean that we ignore the other 10, yet, the banning is correct if and only if the banning of all 11 parties is correct. I expressed my doubts that banning 11 parties would have anything to do with the rule of law. I can be convinced about the validity of this step committed by the president if it is proven that all 11 parties:

- had a fair trial
- were proven guilty of treason
- the proofs are verifiable and authentic

You cherry-pick the Communist Party of Ukraine, a party which supported the annexation of the Chrimea in 2014 and which is a small party. The largest banned party was Opposition Platform for Life, a party which has some Russian ties and one of its members, Illia Kyva expressed support for the invasion. Yet, on March 7th 2022, Medvedchuk was deprived of his post as co-chairman of the party and Yuriy Boyko became the only chairman. On the same day the party demanded

"from the leadership of the Russian Federation to stop the aggression against Ukraine and calls on the participants of the negotiation process to immediately decide on a ceasefire and withdrawal of all Russian troops from Ukraine."

Also, the party supports the Ukrainian effort for self-defense.

On March 20th 2022 the party was suspended.

So, is this party committing treason? It does not seem to be the case. It committed internal cleansing to get rid of the members who support the Russian invasion.
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 07:03
Btw. guns are not allowed at the court in democratic countries :-)
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 06:59
@lajosarpad: Denying party on it's own is nothing against individuals in those parties. And after the war it can be revisited standard way and "war" steps might be taken back. Allowing again parties who win regular court case is much easier then rebuilding all the stuff destroyed in last weeks.
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 06:55
@lajosarpad: "I refer to the prompt suspensions of 11 parties by the president that happened very recently."

Proper court here would lead exactly to what Putin asked for and Zelensky denied, it's quite obvious that court case would lead to solving question which require solution on highest level. At the moment it is clearly not a matter of democratic discussion between 2 parties in the court. In general you are right, this should be the case and in Ukraine it was working like this before occupation.
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 04:38
@lajosarmad - repeating the question, do you have any concrete case in mind? Pick any listed in wikipage in my previous comment and check whether it applies to your comment. Probably first pick would be complex seems to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Ukraine
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/1/2022 04:21
Clarifications for my earlier comments:

1.

"If trials are slow, then during wars they could be prolonged."

I've meant that the trials could be shortened during wartime.

2. "prompt decision and execution"

By this I'vemeant that the decision was executed quickly, i.e., the parties were banned.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/1/2022 04:09
@Martas I refer to the prompt suspensions of 11 parties by the president that happened very recently. Problems:

- a president should not have the power to do so, this should be tackled by an independent judiciary
- no trial, no fair hearing
- prompt decision and execution
- the accused parties did not have a chance to make their case

So, we have a president here, who decides what parties ought to exist and what parties should not. I'm not particularly fond of the Ukrainian government, nor its opposition, yet, the way that 11 parties were banned so quickly and inappropriately is a definite sign of autocracy.

In order for such decision to be well-founded, all of the following condition must be met:

- the accusation is proven
- the guilty people in the party are leaders, or the guilt is prevalent in the party

What proof or investigation happened regarding them? I don't know of any. They were banned because the president said so.
arzi arzi 4/1/2022 03:27
Maybe banning is banned in banning area by banning law?
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 01:31
@lajosarpad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Banned_political_parties_in_Ukraine - lot of reading including linked parties and reasons why the list might not be complete. Do you have any particular case in mind? Looking randomly banning doesn't seem to happen without court, except of those happened in last month.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/1/2022 12:20
@Martas I really doubt that all the banned parties were collaborators with Russia. You are correct when you state that at wartime things need to move fast. Yet, a fair trial is necessary to serve justice. What if a party banned based on bogus accusations? Is it really okay to label people as "traitors" and stifle their right to express and represent their opinion, possibly leading to their imprisonment or even execution? I don't think so. Every individual should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. So, everyone has the right for a fair trial. If trials are slow, then during wars they could be prolonged. But the president should have no power to directly manipulate the rights of his political opponents. The banning of the opposition in the Ukraine seems to be an undefensible position.

Also, we should not forget that the largest minority in the Ukraine is the Russian minority. Are they "Russian-friendly"? Surely, since they are not their own enemy. Should they have a right for representation? Surely. Yet, they have been shelled in the last 8 years by the Ukraine and now they have no right for representation as far as I know. Is it really okay? Is it really necessary?

Again, we agree that Russia is the aggressor and Russia is worse in this conflict than the Ukraine. Our point of debate is the Ukraine's banning of political opposition. This is wrong in Ukraine and it is wrong in Russia as well.
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 09:33
@oxygenes : "As says Russians: "Learn math. part first...""

There are things you need to do properly before you start applying math.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08989620212968
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 01:33
@oxygenes : "Whole effort in vain, scratching just peak of iceberg, real problem is hidden deeper. First must be determined, whether or not national heroes of independent Ukraina - Bandera and Suchevic are positive peoples or war criminals. Other questions can be cleared then easily. "

Sorry to say this, but a lot of your argumentation starting with this statement sounds like you are trying to accuse majority of Ukrainians being nazis who first need to accept this or prove otherwise and only afterwards they are worth getting any help against Russian invaders. If so, or at least partially, please try to be a bit more clear. If you only want to thrown in numbers without clear relevance to current problems of Ukraine and Russia it makes no sense, all that history is well known.
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 01:11
@oxygenes : Ukrainians, Latvians, whom else do you want to accuse from being nazis? Czechs? There were some concentration camps there as well. How about Russia, do you want to check your math skills there as well? Or saving people closed in ghetos in Siberia was never a priority? What do you want to conclude from that math? Putin's 8 year legit war against nazi Ukrainians, Latvia is next, let's see who follows up?
Martas Martas 4/1/2022 12:39
@lajosarpad: "Explanation about the reason why a politician should never have the power to determine what parties are ought to exist"

Are we talking about parties banned in last 8 years or even in the last month? Never say never, war state doesn't give you good conditions to follow all democratic rules, they are good when you are able to make sure they work.

Example from my country - https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/114636.pdf?v=6ca8cacfd5a6399e89cec6ecd141dfd6 - clear case of collaboration, court was possible more then 20 years later, majority of those guys were involved in the country leadership during that time.
oxygenes oxygenes 3/31/2022 06:03
@Martas:
"If you live in western part of Europe, please check the map of Europe to see the distance of Ukraine and Latvia from there"
Well, no need check the map to know, what area lays between Ukraina and Germany. Murdering in ghettos were in Latvia too, at minimum 6 death (not concetration) camps in Poland, where peoples were directly anihilated.
In view of this rest no need comment.
As says Russians: "Learn math. part first..."
https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/aktualnosci/86223,Monika-Tomkiewicz-Niemieckie-obozy-na-ziemiach-polskich-19391945.html
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/31/2022 05:42
Explanation about the reason why a politician should never have the power to determine what parties are ought to exist: Let's suppose that there is an X country. The head of state is Y. Yet, Z is a party which is quite popular and endangers Y's seat. So, Y wages a political struggle against Z, which is okay, as long as Y cannot determine whether Z is "guilty" or "innocent". Once Y has such a power, then X is at the disposal of Y's goodwill of not using his power unethically. But it is always possible that Y will be power-hungry, corrupt or fanatic, in which case Y will use whatever pretext he can in order to ban Z. Be it "corruption", "treason", "deviancy", "enemy of the state", "kulak", kaffir", "Jew", "Untermensch", whatever.

This is why political power is divided into several different branches, to ensure that even if a branch of state power becomes corrupt, the system will have a chance of auto-correcting itself due to the other 2 branches. However, if the head of state can determine what opinions or ideologies can others adhere to, then Y will apply tyranny whenever he thinks he can get away with it.

You speak about treason in general. Do we know that all of them were betrayers? If so, how come they are not executed? If not, then how come they are banned?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/31/2022 05:29
@Martas if you know about some articles or sources that factually prove that all the parties were openly or secretly plotting against Ukraine, then I would like to see those sources. Thanks!
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/31/2022 05:28
@Martas "Banning political parties - what would you do if countrymen of you invite foreign army to your country or takes advantages of presence of that army in the country? Isn't this considered as betrayal of your own country? Try it in Russia to compare possible consequences of acting like this, you might find out banning political party being peaceful response."

If a person collaborates with the enemy, that's treason. Yet, I would be very much surprised if it would turn out that ALL the members of ALL the banned parties were collaborators. Also, banning parties because of treason seems to be the problem-space of the judiciary, not of the head-of-state. If Zelensky, a politician, who has direct interest in banning the second-most popular party has the power to ban parties without proper prosecution, then Ukraine is an autocratic state.

Also, you argue about Russia. However, I did not claim that Russia is a free country. We agree that Russia is a dictatorship. Yet, banning 11 political parties without prosecution, without a fair trial by the head-of-state is not a trait of a free society, to put it mildly.

I would like to emphasize that we agree about Russia, so, saying that Russia is even worse is factually true, but the fact that Russia is even worse will not automatically transform Ukraine into a free state.
Martas Martas 3/31/2022 03:50
@oxygenes:
"Whole effort in vain, scratching just peak of iceberg, real problem is hidden deeper. First must be determined, whether or not national heroes of independent Ukraina - Bandera and Suchevic are positive peoples or war criminals. Other questions can be cleared then easily. "
"Outcome of war and speed of solution depend upon politician, not me."
"But general tragic effect of help ukrainian UPA for nazi Germany - prolonged WW2 in Europe, in consequences in whole world too. So their ultranationalistic motivated behavior to took wrong side had consequences in death many civilians in concentrations camps, which could be liberated sooner and saved."

How should I label those 3 statements, naive, alibistic and selfish?
Martas Martas 3/31/2022 02:32
@oxygenes: Seeing just one part of problem and ignoring the other, that's exactly the point and might be based on location of viewer presenting his opinion. If you live in western part of Europe, please check the map of Europe to see the distance of Ukraine and Latvia from there. Impact of Ukrainian and Latvian soldiers on prolonging WWII - those guys were mainly fighting for interests of their people at home, how did they prolong the war against Hitler, by not letting Russian army to help sooner in Germany? Check the map again, how did Russian army get there and what price do you think they wanted for their help? All the costs for that help at that time was up to countries which were after WWII left under Russian occupation. Do you consider 1945 being late for freedom there? Do you have any clue of terror organized by Russians in half of Europe for many years after WWII? Do you really want to call people from there as nazis because of their opinion based on painful experiences with both Hitler and Stalin while you only have experiences with Hitler?
Regarding Zedelgem monument, I had to do little research since the topic is new to me, your opinion is based on http://www.belgians-remember-them.eu/zedelgem.php , I'd suggest you to check as well https://okupacijasmuzejs.lv/en/news/a-monument-to-latvian-legionnaires-and-freedom-was-unveiled-in-belgium-649/
oxygenes oxygenes 3/31/2022 12:32
@Martas: You probably misplayed your thinking.
Comparing pacts Poland-Germany 1936, GB+France-Germany 1938, USSR-Germany 1939 is logical fence, no matter, if you like it or not. All these pacts are logical consequences of behavior France + GB, who failed keep Germany demilitarised. Not i was responsible for it. If you want see just one part, it is your free choice.
Outcome of war and speed of solution depend upon politician, not me, so your claim is probably based on deep misunderstanding. - "if you are trying to solve the conflict by first solving complex historical questions, it rather seems like you want to keep conflict ongoing for long time."
If you want compare "Ukrainian folks fighting against Russia on the side of Germans" at this period, you can add fight units of Polska Armia Krajowa aganst Ukrainian UPA and vice versa too.
But general tragic effect of help ukrainian UPA for nazi Germany - prolonged WW2 in Europe, in consequences in whole world too. So their ultranationalistic motivated behavior to took wrong side had consequences in death many civilians in concentrations camps, which could be liberated sooner and saved.
If you consider these problem as too complex, ok, you have all time study it until your last days, if you wish.

Still can you answer for easy point-part 4. of my previous post? I hope, that at least in this point you have clear view.
Martas Martas 3/31/2022 10:19
@oxygenes : as I said before, if you are trying to solve the conflict by first solving complex historical questions, it rather seems like you want to keep conflict ongoing for long time. If you would at least stick to problems between Russia and Ukraine, we could end up comparing impact of pacts involved in struggles between these 2 countries - ie Ribbentrop-Molotov vs. Ukrainian folks fighting against Russia on the side of Germans. Mentioning other pacts including those on other side of Europe is just too far away.
Also a try to "solve" history of Bandera and his compatriots without trying to do the same with Stalin and his compatriots, that's a dream outcome of Putin's propaganda. Please try to be at least a bit objective with your historical studies, you might then be able to see inspiration of Russian leaders by Romans ("divide et impera") and many decades of applying this in a big part of Europe up to former Eastern Germany.
Martas Martas 3/31/2022 09:52
@lajosarpad : Banning political parties - what would you do if countrymen of you invite foreign army to your country or takes advantages of presence of that army in the country? Isn't this considered as betrayal of your own country? Try it in Russia to compare possible consequences of acting like this, you might find out banning political party being peaceful response.
oxygenes oxygenes 3/30/2022 11:02
@Martas:
1. May be you first would learn more about facts, who organised assasination of Soviet consul in Lvov 1933, or who participated in assasination of Polish Home Secretary. May be even better, you can learn life story of these "heroes" (Bandera, Suchevic, Stecko). Then your view will not depend upon mine.
2. Ribbentrop-Molotov pact - why you do not noticed previous pacts? Polish-German 1936, GB+France-German 1938. Why you ripped one part and do not see another? I wrote about it some days ago.
3. My view for coalition was expresed for time of WW2. Fact of behavior of France+GB before war is bad side of politic of these countries, they could prevent start of WW2, but they prefered their own full pockets and play "3 apes". Before war Churchill had antirussian stance,. then he agreed create alliance, gifted Stalin the Sword of the Stalingrad and shortly after WW2 Churchill brought plan for nuclear attack against USSR - "Operation Unthinkable". As usual, typical politician, no back bone, very flexible, oportunistic and you try citate him. :)
4. Can you say your opinion about memorial for members of Latvian SS division in Belgian town Zedelgem? Why is it tolerated in EU? If you know the answer, then you know too, why EU ignored 8 years lasted civil war in Ukraina.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/30/2022 07:25
In the majority of wars there is no good side. In WWII, Germany perpetrated the Holocaust, Japan was extremely imperialist and Italy was fascist. However, on the other side, we see the Soviet Union, a terrible empire, which perpetrated several genocides, the de-cossackisation, the de-kulakization, the Holodomor, etc. and it was a terrible dictatorship for many decades. The Western allies burned Drezda to ashes, collected Japanese people into concentration camps, dropped two nuclear bombs, etc. Was there a "good" side? I don't think so.

In the current conflict we see neo-communists on the Russian side and neo-nazis on the Ukrainian side. We see ethnical cleansing in Eastern-Ukraine, the oppression of minorities in Ukraine in general, while the other side tries to grab some land and does not care about lives. Russia is a dictatorship now, while Ukraine also banned many political parties.

I'm not a fan of either side, even though if I had to choose which is the "worse" side, then it would be obviously Russia, because it initiated the war. But, even though the Russian side is worse than the Ukrainian side, the Ukrainian side is not good either.
Martas Martas 3/30/2022 05:20
@oxygenes : maybe one more thought about war criminals. What is that definition based on, Geneve Conventions? It's definitely good basis for accusing Putin being war criminal. Applying this to Bandera has some problems.
Martas Martas 3/30/2022 04:07
@oxygenes: I'd say Germans supported Ukraine rather then opposite. Considering Volyn massacre as a support of Hitler with all consequences you should do the same thing with Katyn massacre. So considering Ukrainian fight as support of Hitler's aims outside of Germany you would have consider Stalin's actions same way, unless you would find out Stalin had his own aims very much same as Hitler's and he was much more successful. Support of nazis - how about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact?
View of coalition of USA+GB+USSR - GB hiding outcome of investigation of Katyn massacre, France and GB serving eastern countries first to Hitler and after WWII to Stalin having no clue what that means, outcome of this is a big surprise of how much support these countries give to Ukraine when they are attacked by Stalin's follower Putin.
And current situation pretty much fits to Churchill's quote "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists."

And maybe direct questions, what is your conclusion regarding Bandera's related history and it's impact on current issues and what kind of outcomes related to that history would help today? And how exactly? Maybe you should also state from which coalition point of view you think so.
oxygenes oxygenes 3/30/2022 03:14
@Martas: I wrote "Their followers...".
I evaluate situation from view of coalition of USA+GB+USSR versus Germany and her allies. All, who supported nazi Germany, they fought again whole coalition.
Hitler probably did not kill personaly (himself and his wife do not count), it did his followers, still he is considered as war criminal. So no need be suprised.
Germany, having "water in the shoes" proposed in Sachsenhausen cooperation for Bandera and he accepted it, despite of fact, that Hitler got furious, when Bandera demanded independed Ukraina by pattern of Ustash Chorvatia and her leader Ante Pavelic. It lead to capturing of Bandera, but his hate to USSR was stronger, so he, as ideological leader, cooperated. In consequences all his followers supported nazi Germany.
As we could see, Israeli secret service haunted nazi criminals everywhere, so no wonder for Bandera fate.
I understand, that Bandera and his followers wanted independent Ukraina, but they choosed wrong way, going far beyond frame of normal nationalism.
Memorials are usualy builded for heroes of their era. If these "heroes" supported nazi Germany, they can be considered as war criminals. In Belgian town Zedelgem is memorial for Latvian SS members, obviously someone consider them as heroes. What can i think about Belgian goverment or EU leaders, if such thing is tolerated?
Martas Martas 3/30/2022 10:13
@oxygenes : don't take me wrong regarding my own opinion of Bandera, I know that name for long time from my slovakian grandma and her opinion was far from positive.
Martas Martas 3/30/2022 10:08
@oxygenes You are asking quite complex question using couple of assumptions which you consider to be facts not worth questioning themselves. Ie do you really consider Hitler vs. Stalin being bad guy vs good guy? For all the country/nation leaders of that time it's only about comparison who caused what amount of damage. You could rank all leaders like this, Hitler and Stalin would be on the top by huge margin and some countries would see Stalin as a clear winner.
Ukraine and Bandera : you should consider situation of Ukraine after WWI, due to agreements of WWI winners it lost it's territory on Polish-Ukrainian borders, which was subject of fights for hundreds of years, likely quite balanced until being affected by big players, which caused Ukrainian people being "polonized" in the lost territory. Also Ukraine was heavily affected by Stalin's genocide with highest estimates of dead tolls being over those of Holocaust. So yes, Ukrainian leaders of that time are seen as leaders who fought for lives of their people having enemies everywhere around.
Bandera and Volyn massacre - surprising historical fact, Bandera was sent to Sachsenhausen concentration camp before Volyn massacre and lived in Germany since then until being killed by KGB agent in Munich 59.

You should leave this part of history to be solved by Ukraine and Poland. Some hint how it works you can see nowadays, millions of Ukrainian refugees are being welcomed in Poland as friends who need their support in fight against Russian invaders. And as I mentioned earlier here, nothing wrong with such questions on it's own, but it becomes a problem when it's used to affect opinion of others by highlighting irrelevant historical problems and ignoring much bigger problems with more relevance to current struggle between Russia and Ukraine, ie holodomor etc.
oxygenes oxygenes 3/29/2022 08:47
Can some one explain, why criminals and supporters of nazi Germany - Bandera and Suchevic are today national heroes of Ukraina? Their followers fought side by side of nazi German army against Soviet Army. Murdered thousands Polish and Jewish peoples, commited Volyn massacre, ukrainian SS Galicia fought again Slovak National upraising too upon German side.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/29/2022 08:24
@Quanber Intimidation? No way. I do not intend to scare you. I exposed your false claims about Karjakin. Since you have resorted to personal attacks, I asked you to let us know who you are. You do not seem to want to take responsibility for what you have said. It's a pity, but, if you do not grow a pair, I'm fine with that too. Call us names from behind that nickname. I use my real name in this discussion, so I take responsibility to what I say. You are trolling.

Lie factory? It was you who attributed a tweet to Karjakin that was written by someone else.

Did Karjakin call all Ukrainians nazis? If so, then it would be quite an absurd statement. You will surely share the source for that if Karjakin indeed said anything of the like. However, the Azov batallion is a nazi group and they are not only tolerated, but even supported by the Ukrainian government. So, while it is quite absurd to say that all Ukrainians would be nazis, but, it is a factually true thing to say that the Azov batallion is a nazi group: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/05/01/ukr-m01.html

However, on the other hand, it is quite understandable that the Ukrainian president accepts any help. Yet, this still means that he supports a nazi group.

Also, you seem to not realize that Karjakin is a rich person, who collected a lot of money from chess tournaments. It is quite absurd to state that his opinion is motivated by money. It is far more likely that his thoughts are his genuine thoughts.
Quanber Quanber 3/29/2022 03:01
Lajosarpad, I do not know how many people on a daily basis you seek to intimidate from speaking out with your personal attacks. But as you can see it does not work.

In addition, you tell over and over and over and over and over and over about Karajkin's right to express himself freely detached from the consequences of his lies. It is a lie that the Ukrainian leadership and population are Nazis. But it makes the Russians support the violence against innocent citizens of Ukraine, because now they are all Nazis, and Ukraine itself has no right to exist because the leadership is Nazis.

You are a manipulative lying factory that thinks you can scare the truth away from the internet. You can stop now. The mask has been torn from you for a long time. Karajkin will never again participate in a chess event in the West. Unless he claim he was forced to support Putins war crimes.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/29/2022 02:37
@Quanber Interestingly-enough you always fabricate your "overwhelming" "evidence". It is almost as if you didn't have evidence at all.

It is so great that you speak with GMs, you have a Phd, you know Putin and you use your own name while commenting. Because if any of these was false, then we would think that you are just a troll.

Earlier you accused arzi and me with being FSB agents and "suffocating" free speech by... speaking (!). Yet, turok writes his/her first comment here, expressing his/her disagreement with the ban and you tell him/her that what he/she writes is "nonsense". However, it was just disagreement with FIDE being political.
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