The problem with Chess960

by Frederic Friedel
2/28/2018 – Two weeks ago there was a World Championship — in Chess960, a variant that symmetrically shuffles the position of the pieces behind the row of pawns. The game has gained some popularity since it eliminates the staggering amount of preparation that is required in regular chess. But Chess960 has a few problems that probably prevent it from really taking off. We discuss some possible solutions to these problems.

Master Class Vol.1: Bobby Fischer Master Class Vol.1: Bobby Fischer

No other World Champion was more infamous both inside and outside the chess world than Bobby Fischer. On this DVD, a team of experts shows you the winning techniques and strategies employed by the 11th World Champion.

Grandmaster Dorian Rogozenco delves into Fischer’s openings, and retraces the development of his repertoire. What variations did Fischer play, and what sources did he use to arm himself against the best Soviet players? Mihail Marin explains Fischer’s particular style and his special strategic talent in annotated games against Spassky, Taimanov and other greats. Karsten Müller is not just a leading international endgame expert, but also a true Fischer connoisseur.

More...

What is Chess960?

There is a comprehensive article on Chess960 on Wikipedia, which you can consult on all the details of this variant. Here I will only summarize some of the main points.

In 1996 former world chess champion Bobby Fischer announced, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, a new variant of chess that became known as Fischer Random Chess. It employed the normal chess board and pieces, but the starting position of the pieces on the first rank was randomized, with the pawns being placed on the second ranks as in standard chess. The position of the pieces was reflected for both sides.

Fischer's proposal was itself a variant of Shuffle Chess, which was first played in the late 18th century. But it had some additional rules and restrictions: the bishops must be placed on opposite-colour squares, and the king must be placed on a square between the rooks. The game has some fairly complex castling rules, which you can study in the Wiki article.

The name Fischer Random Chess soon turned into Fischerrandom, and after he had introduced this variant into the Mainz Chess Classic in 1991 organiser Hans-Walter Schmitt changed it to Chess960, which reflects the number of different starting positions that are possible in the game. A few years before he died Bobby Fischer consulted me on a possible match against World Champion Viswanathan Anand. In our phone conversations, he referred to the game as "Fischer Random" or, more often, "New Chess".

The typical start of a Chess960 game — note that the h-pawns are undefended

Why does anyone need this new chess variant?

Fischer's intention in introducing the new rules was to eliminate the incredible level of openings preparation that prevails in contemporary chess. In my conversations with him, I admitted that this was a real problem: imagine a world championship in a few years from now, where the two players reel off 28 moves of a known variation, in just a few minutes — and then one of them plays a novelty. His opponent thinks for an hour and resigns the game! Bobby enjoyed this somewhat facetious scenario that justified his introduction of New Chess, where players must devise original moves from the start. Memorizing thousands of home prepared opening lines would be eliminated, and the playing field would be levelled.

I undertook a few public and private 960 experiments with strong players. In the ill-thought-out expectation that human grandmasters would be able to score better than computers, we arranged matches against Alexei Shirov and Vishy Anand, against GM Artur Yusupov, and then Pocket Fritz against Peter Leko and Michael Adams. The results were disappointing, especially for me, rooting for the players and hoping for a reprieve in the man-machine circuit.

But the reality was that as computers grew stronger they had an ever greater dominance against humans. The only chance a strong GM had was to come out of the opening with very good ideas and a concrete plan on how to proceed. Computers, on the other hand, see the position for the first time. But in Chess960 this applies to both sides, and that is far more disconcerting for the human than for the computer.

The disadvantage of Chess960

In human vs human Chess960 games, the players are much more evenly matched. In recent tournaments and matches, e.g. the one a fortnight ago between Magnus Carlsen and Hikaru Nakamura, the strongest players tend to win, using only playing skill and general understanding of the game — as opposed to openings preparation and tricks.

In 2008 FIDE accepted the inevitable and added Chess960 as Guidelines II — Chess960 Rules of its Laws of Chess. Slowly the game gained popularity, though it did not take off the way its devotees hoped. There are some grave disadvantages, which I noticed all too clearly when I attended the Mainz Chess Classic over a decade ago.

Take a look at the above picture, from a rapid chess event played in 2006. In a traditional game Anand and Radjabov have a familiar, very promising position on the board. Aronian vs Svidler, a Chess960 rapid game, has a weird position the players still pondering on move four.

Here's another example: Svidler is still wondering, on move five, if he can move a pawn and not lose instantly, while Anand is pondering his 22nd move in a very interesting position. In the commentary booths, the GMs were discussing Anand's options with great excitement – he seemed to be struggling to equalize with white in a Sveshnikov! They were completely silent on the Aronian-Svidler game, as nobody had the faintest idea of what was going on. I think it was Tim Krabbé who compared commenting on a Fischer Random game to conducting a guided tour of an art gallery that you are visiting for the first time. Very apt.

Another problem is that the Chess960 positions, regarding their winning probabilities, are often asymmetric. We know this for example from a very large number of computer games — over 200,000 played by the Computer Chess Ratings List team in 2005–2008.

There are a few other disadvantages. Traditional chess offers continuity: you see a very nice game in a certain opening or a disaster with it, and you wait for someone else to play it, to see how they fare. That is impossible in Chess960. The same applies to learning from your mistakes: if something went wrong in a game there is no incentive to look for an improvement. You are never going to get the position again.

Starting positions most/least advantageous for White

 
 
 
 

You can move the pieces on the above boards to think about how to start the games. Full data for all 960 positions can be found on this special CCRL statistics page. Some give White substantial advantage, some are simply bizarre, causing players to cringe, and some invite blunders and result in very short games. But many are interesting and exciting.

So what to do about Chess960?

There have been many attempts to improve on Fischer Random and Chess960. For instance, there are suggestions to modify the castling rules, which are not easy to comprehend and quite off-putting. John Kipling Lewis proposed a simplification that results in Chess480 — half the Chess960 positions are mirrors but different due to the complex castling rules, which Lewis avoids. Others have suggested that kings and rooks should start in their usual places, and only the other pieces are placed randomly.

To remedy the problem of biased positions (in which one side has a clear advantage) the suggestion is that Chess960 tournaments should have two games with swapped colours per encounter. But this means you have to halve the time per game or halve the number of games per tournament. Also in the second game players have learned from the first one: the g-pawn is vulnerable and can be easily blundered, as my opponent just did. I must be very careful about that. Or they learn from the clever ideas of the other player and can use them in the second game.

But the main problem of Chess960, in my opinion, is that you start with absolutely no prior information or practice. Preparation has, for more than a thousand years, been an integral part of chess — and greatly appreciated by its adherents. Chess fans swooned over new openings ideas the masters have come up with in-home preparation, and the ideas and strategies that are born of this kind of research have improved our understanding of the game.

The main problem arose in the second half of the 20th century, and especially since the advent of computers and chess databases: openings preparation started to completely dominate chess. Chess960 eliminates this problem, but it does so at the cost of turning off an important aspect of human creativity. Must we do away with all preparation in order to compensate for the exaggerated degree to which it had grown? Or is there a compromise?

Kasparov's proposal

In 2005 (I believe it was) I discussed Fischer Random and Chess960 with Garry Kasparov. He came up with the following suggestion: we select ten interesting and exciting positions to be used in tournaments and allow players to prepare in advance. Immediately before the start of each round, the audience in the hall (or on the Internet) selects one of these ten positions for all games. This provides spectator participation, which is never a bad thing. Players have some basic preparation for all ten positions — they do not have to start the game with a long think about "can I move the c-pawn?" And commentators can come prepared as well.

At the time I was, as mentioned above, talking to Bobby Fischer about his plans for a comeback with a Fischer Random match, and I discussed the ten-position idea with him. He was quite interested in it and we spoke for maybe half an hour, discussing all kinds of details. But then he said: "It is quite a good idea, Frederic. When did you come up with it?" I confessed it was not me but Kasparov, and the tide immediately turned. "No, there's a trick. He has preparation for special positions or something." And that was the end of discussion of "Kasparov10" chess with Fischer.

I also discussed the proposal with GMs playing Chess960 in the Mainz Classic, with essentially the same reaction: interesting, maybe... But when I revealed the proposal came from Kasparov they became very defensive — must be a trick." I must mention that the idea was rejected by some players explicitly because it involved some kind of prior preparation. Clearly they were enjoying the new form of chess where absolutely no homework was involved: you just appeared for the round and used your general chess skills and understanding to outplay your opponent.

One last thing I need to mention: when discussing Kasparov's proposal with FIDE officials, to lukewarm reception, I suggested a more radical approach: the International Chess Federation announces a single Chess960 position, on November 1st of each year. This position is the one that is used during the entire coming year, and on November 1st of that year, a new position is announced. The intention is to allow industrious players to do some fairly profound preparation and produce deep, creative ideas, while not letting them go too far. They know that after the end of the coming year they can dump their entire preparation and start afresh. The best of both worlds? Of course, my proposal was not adopted, and the same applied to Kasparov's ten positions variant. So we are stuck with Chess960 in its current form.

So what do our readers think? We would be very interested to hear your opinions: do you like this chess variant, do you think it is necessary, do you think it cures the problem of over-preparation? And what do you think about restricting the starting positions to 360, or ten, or just one per year? Please tell us in the comment section below.

All photos by Frederic Friedel

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Editor-in-Chief emeritus of the ChessBase News page. Studied Philosophy and Linguistics at the University of Hamburg and Oxford, graduating with a thesis on speech act theory and moral language. He started a university career but switched to science journalism, producing documentaries for German TV. In 1986 he co-founded ChessBase.

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fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 3/4/2018 07:33
To further clarify give an example how castling does not apply to ALL positions in chess: take a position when black has a number of pieces amassed on the kingside. The white king will be castling into a storm, a lost position. There are many times when this happens in chess. Also the case on the queenside. So to say that there are clear principles that can be applied to ALL positions in chess is silly.
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 3/4/2018 07:25
@Petrarlsen, many of your points are subjective and do not make sense when it comes to castling and chess960 (although you have made many fine points on a number of subjects in chessbase comments).

Regarding shifting knights and rooks, I would be open to any proposals. But it is unlikely that this move would have signficance, you are right. However, castling involving the king automatically takes on high significance, even without traditional chess as a reference. The king is the most important piece. There is the possibility of the king escaping to one side of the board or the other in many positions. It is important to connect the rooks, as it is in traditional chess. These are 2 very clear ideas. And I submit that in ALL starting positions, king safety and connecting the rooks are important possible ideas in chess960. Of course in 100% of games it will not be the case, but that is the case in regular chess. Should all pawns be moved forward 2 squares in its first move? Why should it sometimes be moved forward 1 square and sometimes it is better to move forward 2? Should we eliminate this move also? All chess principles to not apply to every situation. I cite again the interview with Carlsen at google when he says that we have discovered through computers that ALL principles/ideas in chess actually are subservient to concrete variations. Peter Thiel asks him, "so we learn that maybe doubled pawns are not bad in all positions as we thought before", and Carlsen contradicts him - says that we cannot consider doubled pawns as being bad at all, it all depends on the specifics of the position.

being "too used to Chess960, and don't see anymore its defects" is a very bizarre argument. Typically the more one engages in an activity, the easier it becomes to see defects. The only place I have seen this argument used is in politics, when there is "psychosclerosis", a hardening of the mind, but which is really only applied to older persons who have been doing something for many years and gotten complacent, but chess960 has not been around for very long. I do not think you can talk about complacency in any of my opinions.

"if these clear and logical reasons could be applied to any Chess960 position". I gave 2 clear and logical reasons above. But as I pointed out, there are no clear and logical reasons that can be applied to any chess idea in traditional chess in ALL positions. There are games without castling. So should we eliminate castling in traditional chess also? On what basis are the 2 clear and logical reasons (ability to shield/escape with the king and connecting the rooks) not clear and logical reasons, other than your opinion? As @TRM1361 points out, castling in chess960 seems superior to traditional chess, because on the basis of these 2 ideas (for chess960, not the 2 you give for traditional chess), there is more flexibility in chess960; you cannot escape as far with the king in regular chess as in chess960, eg if the King starts on b1 and castles kingside.

Since you talk about why castling was invented, I looked it up to see what I could find, and it looks like your 2 reasons of king safety and rook development were not the reasons. In fact, although no one knows for sure, it seems that these developed later. http://history.chess.free.fr/mediaeval-chess.htm Initially the king's movement was different to today, and could move 2 squares initially to speed up the game (this was the beginning of castling). Later on, the queen and bishop became more powerful and the king weaker, and so it became more useful for the king's "special ability" to be for defense, and then the idea of combining it with the rook was developed. So if we look at the original reason, to speed up the game, one can see that chess960 is more true to this, because it certainly speeds up the game more that in regular chess, eg being able to do it on the first move sometimes, as you pointed out, immediately bringing the rook into the game.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/4/2018 03:50
@ TRM1361 :

- "Castling is perfectly logical in both traditional and 960. You move your king out of harms way." How do you "move your king out of harms way" in positions such as the position given in the Wikipedia article on Chess960 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960#Castling_rules), when the King moves TOWARD the center, when castling ??

- "Reply to: Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 02:11: "How would you explain the logic and the ideas behind castling, in the position given as an example on the Wikipedia page on Chess960 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960#Castling_rules) ?"

If white castles "H" side he loses a pawn. Castling "A" side preserves the pawn. If white wants to stop black from castling A1-A8 and preserve a potential later "H" side castle for himself (white) if desired. It seems rather obvious to me."

You didn't get my meaning at all. I developed this much further in my later posts to fgkdjlkag : when I say "the logic and ideas behind castling", I mean the general "logic and ideas behind castling", and not the reasons for which the players could castle in this given position. In traditional chess, in a very large majority of positions, it is possible to explain castling by the two ideas of the safety of the King and the development of one of the Rooks. I don't think that in Chess960 it is possible to find such clear and general ideas who could be applied more or less everywhere, for castling.

As I said to fgkdjlkag, the problem with castling in Chess960 is, in my opinion, that its only justification is in reality : "castling exists in traditional chess, and we keep it in Chess960" ; if traditional chess didn't exist, everyone would find that castling as it is implemented in Chess960 is really an extremely weird and illogical move, and everyone would wonder why on earth this strange move has been implemented in this game...

- "(Chess960's castling) is a strategic tool of much greater importance than traditional chess castling."

In a previous post to fgkdjlkag, I gave this example : "I could invent a variant with a new move, "petrarlsening", which would consist of exchanging the positions of Rooks with the positions of Knights (you put the Rooks on the squares previously occupied by Knights, and the Knights on the squares previously occupied by Rooks)." Perhaps, as castling in Chess960, "petrarlsening" could also be "a strategic tool of much greater importance than traditional chess castling" ; nonetheless, I would be strongly opposed to the introduction of such a move, because it is completely arbitrary and meaningless. And the same is more or less true of castling in several Chess960 initial positions. For me, it isn't sufficient for a "special move", as castling (or "petrarlsening"...), to be potentially useful ; it must also answer to a general logic and to general ideas ; its concept must be easily understandable for any practictioner or follower of the game, and such isn't the case, in my opinion, with Chess960's castling in its present form.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/4/2018 03:11
"(...) imagine a world championship in a few years from now, where the two players reel off 28 moves of a known variation, in just a few minutes — and then one of them plays a novelty. His opponent thinks for an hour and resigns the game!" (Frederic Friedel)

I must say that, as for me, this scenario doesn't bother me at all !... On the one hand, this would happen very rarely. And, on the other hand, such a scenario in a World Championship game would mean that this game's winner would necessarily (in view of the level of his opponent - either World Champion or Challenger) have found a really extraordinary gem of an opening novelty - we could call it the "Cullinan of the opening novelties", at such a level !! Perhaps, for example, Kramnik could pull out such a novelty against Carlsen (even if, in such a match, I would think that, for the World Title itself, Carlsen would clearly have the best chances...). I must say that, if I hadn't followed this (hypothetical) game live, I would "jump" open it as fast as I could and on all the available GM commentaries to see this extraordinary opening novelty !

As for me, I think that Chess960 or an improved version of it can perfectly well coexist with traditional chess ; for this, I completely rally to celeje's opinion on this theme :

"No one who likes Chess960 wants to abandon traditional chess. The people who suggest abandoning traditional chess seem to be those who don't like Chess960 either. Those who like Chess960 want both to exist.

One of the main points of Chess960 is that it can exist alongside the game with the traditional starting position, played by the same people, with the same skills rewarded. There's no replacement going on."
TRM1361 TRM1361 3/4/2018 03:01
Reply to: Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 02:11: "In traditional chess, castling is perfectly logical, and the ideas behind it are quite crystal-clear (Seirawan's explanations are perfectly topical on this subject, in my opinion). "

Castling is perfectly logical in both traditional and 960. You move your king out of harms way. In 960 you have more flexibility as you can move greater distances with your king.

Reply to: Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 02:11: "How would you explain the logic and the ideas behind castling, in the position given as an example on the Wikipedia page on Chess960 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960#Castling_rules) ?"

If white castles "H" side he loses a pawn. Castling "A" side preserves the pawn. If white wants to stop black from castling A1-A8 and preserve a potential later "H" side castle for himself (white) if desired. It seems rather obvious to me.

Reply to: Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 02:11: "I don't quite see how something as haphazard as Chess960's castling can be in some positions can be considered as perfectly satisfying."

It seems "haphazard" to you but it is a strategic tool of much greater importance than traditional chess castling. And what is with the "Satisfying" angle? It is a tactic that unlike traditional chess can get you into trouble as much as it can get you out of it.

I have played Chess960 exclusively for over a decade now and I still love traditional chess but I don't think I'd ever play it again. I was good at memorising openings and endings but the midgame creativity was always my weakness. I love that Chess960 forces me to play midgame tactics from move #1. I love that it forces me to evaluate castling and not just do it by rote because "that is what the opening book said to do".

Different strokes for different folks. I'm happy that people enjoy playing zero luck games like Chess, 960, Chinese Chess, Shogi, Go, Checkers, etc.

As far as I'm concerned the alternative title to a rebuttal article would be "The Problem With People Trying To Force Their Traditional Rote Chess Perceptions Onto Chess960". Long winded yes :)
Jacob woge Jacob woge 3/4/2018 02:29
Now in stereo
Jacob woge Jacob woge 3/4/2018 02:28
“You're free to hold whatever opinion you want regarding "fun" and "blood", but it is definitely, objectively not true to say it's "in the same sense" as bughouse or other variants.”

Not quite the same sense, since bughouse is a foursome.

I could have mentioned blitz. Chess for fun, too.

No preparation, no study, no analysis. Just, let’s see what happens.

If none of these pre- and post-game activities appeal, any chess variant will do, I suppose. You could e.g. have the queen being equivalent of R+N, or N+B, rather than R+B. Why would that be a bigger change than shuffling the pieces. Or the ancient Persian/Afghan variant: Kings and queens oppose (Kd1, Ke8), no castling but the king is allowed one knight’s move until moved or checked. Pawns move one square, always. A slow game without opening gambits results.

An experiment: Subjects were given chess position to study for ten seconds. The board was cleared, and they were asked to set up the position again. A chess player scores massively better than a non-chess player.

Then they were given random positions. Now the scores are almost equal.

I think a large part of the chess appeal is pattern recognition. One may ask what shuffle chess adds in that respect.

As for the Carlsen-nakamura match, the main interest lies in the result. The sporting element is emphasized. The games are, with the exception of a few endings, to forget.
Jacob woge Jacob woge 3/4/2018 02:27
“You're free to hold whatever opinion you want regarding "fun" and "blood", but it is definitely, objectively not true to say it's "in the same sense" as bughouse or other variants.”

Not quite the same sense, since bughouse is a foursome.

I could have mentioned blitz. Chess for fun, too.

No preparation, no study, no analysis. Just, let’s see what happens.

If none of these pre- and post-game activities appeal, any chess variant will do, I suppose. You could e.g. have the queen being equivalent of R+N, or N+B, rather than R+B. Why would that be a bigger change than shuffling the pieces. Or the ancient Persian/Afghan variant: Kings and queens oppose (Kd1, Ke8), no castling but the king is allowed one knight’s move until moved or checked. Pawns move one square, always. A slow game without opening gambits results.

An experiment: Subjects were given chess position to study for ten seconds. The board was cleared, and they were asked to set up the position again. A chess player scores massively better than a non-chess player.

Then they were given random positions. Now the scores are almost equal.

I think a large part of the chess appeal is pattern recognition. One may ask what shuffle chess adds in that respect.

As for the Carlsen-nakamura match, the main interest lies in the result. The sporting element is emphasized. The games are, with the exception of a few endings, to forget.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/4/2018 12:34
I have calculated the number of initial positions, for the proposal that I exposed at the end of my "3/2/2018 09:01" post ; if I didn't make any error in my calculations (...I am not a mathematician ; could perhaps lajosarpad - who IS a mathematician ! - help by checking my calculations ????), this would give 96 initial positions. So this could - if my calculations are right... - be Chess96, and this would furthermore be some sort of an echo of "Chess960", the original Fischer concept...

First precision : as my system is symmetrical (as I have suppressed the differences between a-side castling and h-side castling), the total number of positions obtained must be divided by two to obtain the true number of really different positions ; each position has its exact symmetrical equivalent by inverting all the pieces (Black and White) between the a-side and the h-side. So the original 192 positions must thus be reduced to 96 positions.

Second precision : even if fgkdjlkag quite rightly pointed out that my reasoning was wrong about the first-move castling, I have kept my last rule (excluding positions in which the King and one of the Rooks would be on contiguous files) for this calculation, as I think that it would be better not to allow the players to castle immediately (my idea being that, in a way, the possibility of castling must be "earned" - my opinion is that it is "too easy" to have the possibility to castle directly on the first move ; it nearly completely takes away the debate "Will I choose to go for a very quick castling or not ?", as castling is anyway immediately possible).
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 10:17
@ celeje : I agree.

My opinion is that Chess960 should be optimized, as for the castling, but, in my opinion, it definitely is "serious chess". And even my criticisms are only related to a certain number of Chess960's positions (and in traditional chess, the initial position is indeed one of the Chess960's initial positions, so it doesn't seems to me really possible to say that, in general, Chess960 cannot be "serious chess").

But, obviously, it is also possible to play Chess960 just for fun (...as it is also possible to play traditional chess just for fun !)...
celeje celeje 3/3/2018 09:12
@Jacob woge:

You're free to hold whatever opinion you want regarding "fun" and "blood", but it is definitely, objectively not true to say it's "in the same sense" as bughouse or other variants. In Chess960, the rules are the same. In bughouse and other variants, the rules are completely different. In Chess960, you might end up playing a completely traditional chess game from move zero. In bughouse and other variants, it's completely different from beginning to end. I would bet on Carlsen winning a Chess960 match with anyone. I have no idea if Carlsen would be even a reasonable bughouse player if he played it.
Jacob woge Jacob woge 3/3/2018 08:04
“Chess for blood, chess for fun.”

In my opinion, chess960 is chess in the same sense that bughouse is. Chess for fun. Definitely chess for fun.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 02:31
@ ChessBase : I think that what could be a good idea would be a poll with, as a first question, something like : "Do you consider that Chess960 in its present form is satisfying ?", and, if the answer is "No", to ask for which reason, proposing as large as possible a list of possible reasons (using in particular the present article and the comments under it to create this list).
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 01:05
@ fgkdjlkag (2/2) :

- "You state "but don't answer to any clear concept or idea : you just evaluate the position before castling and after castling, and assess if castling will be useful or not. " Is this not the case for all moves in chess now?"

The very great difference is that, with these Chess960 castlings, it is THE MOVE IN ITSELF (castling) that is arbitrary and without meaning. For example, I could invent a variant with a new move, "petrarlsening", which would consist of exchanging the positions of Rooks with the positions of Knights (you put the Rooks on the squares previously occupied by Knights, and the Knights on the squares previously occupied by Rooks). This would be a completely arbitrary and meaningless move, and I don't see for what possible reason this move could be introduced in chess (even if, certainly, in some positions, if this move was introduced, it would objectively be the best move). The same is true for castling in Chess960, in several position, as, for example, the Wikipedia position I gave as an example ; castling, a logical move answering to a clear concept in traditional chess, becomes here a completely arbitrary and meaningless move in these positions. And I don't find this satisfying.

- "I do not find anything wrong with the castling example in the wikipedia article. It centralizes the queenside rook and connects the 2 rooks. Without castling it would take 3 moves to get to that position! Because the king would have to move back to the first rank for protection."

I didn't say at all that castling wouldn't be useful in this position, but only that it doesn't answer to any clear general concept. In traditional chess, each type of move answers to a clear concept ; I don't see any general concept behind castling in Chess960. And I think that this represents a real superiority for traditional chess in comparison with Chess960 in its current form.

And, in fact, I rather think that you and many other person must take much too much into account traditional chess, when you assess Chess960 castling : the only justification about Chess960 castling is that it imitates (quite badly, in my opinion) castling in traditional chess, and, implicitly, I rather think that Chess960 players don't really go further ; castling exists in traditional chess, and it exists too in Chess960, and that's all...

But imagine that traditional chess never existed ; that Chess960 is a completely independant game without any link whatsoever with any other game ; if a complete beginner would ask you why castling has been invented, what is the meaning of castling, what general effect it is supposed to have (with any possible starting position), what would you answer ? In traditional chess, the answer is quite easy to give (main reason : King's safety ; secondary reason : Rook development, schematically - a move at the same time defensive and offensive), but in Chess960, to give a satisfying and logical answer covering any possible initial position seems to me to be more or less impossible...

One more time, the sole and only justification for Chess960 castling in its current form is, in my opinion, that it exists in traditional chess, and that it has been transposed in Chess960 ; I don't think it is possible to justify it otherwise... And, for me, this is a serious problem indeed...
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 01:04
@ fgkdjlkag (1/2) :

"(...) clearly your opinion of castling in chess960 is based on preconceived notions from what I will call "traditional" chess."

Personally, I rather think that you are too used to Chess960, and don't see anymore its defects... And on the contrary - I will develop this point later in this post -, I think that you are yourself taking much too much into account traditional chess in you views about castling in Chess960.

- "You give 2 reasons for castling in traditional chess, and then are trying to apply that to chess960. It would be like saying that chess960 is bad because it does not have the opening configuration of traditional chess."

It would be well and good if it would be possible to give as clear and logical reasons for castling in Chess960, and if these clear and logical reasons could be applied to any Chess960 position. But I don't think this is the case at all...

- "I did not find it obvious that it should be the best first move, and I do not believe everyone would."

You're right ; I checked with Stockfish and, in this position, castling isn't at all the obvious best move, so my criticism on this precise point wasn't founded. But this has no link at all with the question of what I consider to be the lack of logic castling presents in several Chess960 positions ; the two are completely separate questions.
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 3/3/2018 08:03
@Petarlsen, clearly your opinion of castling in chess960 is based on preconceived notions from what I will call "traditional" chess. You give 2 reasons for castling in traditional chess, and then are trying to apply that to chess960. It would be like saying that chess960 is bad because it does not have the opening configuration of traditional chess.

If it was a "non-move" as you describe it in the first move of one of the games, then the players would not have made it. So it is clearly a move. I did not find it obvious that it should be the best first move, and I do not believe everyone would. Obviously there is less flexibility because one cannot castle in the other direction. Some knight or pawn moves could have been made instead.

You state "but don't answer to any clear concept or idea : you just evaluate the position before castling and after castling, and assess if castling will be useful or not. " Is this not the case for all moves in chess now? Computers have demonstrated that very convincingly. You have top players making all kinds of strange moves simply because they are the best. Anand is a great example of this. Also players are throwing out many principles (what you call concepts/ideas) that used to be believed, including regarding doubled pawns. Look at Carlsen's interview at google when he talks about how all these ideas are being shown to be wrong based on computer analysis.

I do not find anything wrong with the castling example in the wikipedia article. It centralizes the queenside rook and connects the 2 rooks. Without castling it would take 3 moves to get to that position! Because the king would have to move back to the first rank for protection.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/3/2018 02:11
@ TRM1361 : "One man's "weird and inharmonious castlings" is another man's "weird and wonderful castlings"."

In traditional chess, castling is perfectly logical, and the ideas behind it are quite crystal-clear (Seirawan's explanations are perfectly topical on this subject, in my opinion). How would you explain the logic and the ideas behind castling, in the position given as an example on the Wikipedia page on Chess960 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960#Castling_rules) ?

I don't think this question is a matter of opinion : I don't quite see how something as haphazard as Chess960's castling can be in some positions can be considered as perfectly satisfying... You can't say that ALL is a matter of opinion ; if someone says, for example, that Rock-Paper-Scissors is superior to chess, I think anyone could be entitled to "respectfuly disagree" with this statement...
TRM1361 TRM1361 3/3/2018 12:59
Petrarlsen: One man's "weird and inharmonious castlings" is another man's "weird and wonderful castlings". I'm in the latter camp obviously.

fons3: "The problem with Chess960 might be that the ChessBase database would become useless" but the Encyclopedia of Chess Midgame Combinations, or the Chessbase equivalent, becomes priceless!
Mr TambourineMan Mr TambourineMan 3/2/2018 09:37
Question: Maybe one in FRC can castle twice? First with the King on c1 and the Rook on b1: 0-0-0. And then later as the King hasnt moved do castling again this time with the untouched Rook f1: 0-0. I mean 0-0-0 is ok and then the Rook on f1 has not moved, so then as the King also hadnt moved: 0-0. What does the rules say about that??
Nordlandia Nordlandia 3/2/2018 09:19
The consensus implies castling prevents FRC to be tried out more often. That's unfortunate.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/2/2018 09:01
@ celeje : To elaborate a little more my views about castling in Chess960 :

For me, castling is a move answering to an idea, a concept. For example, I quite like the way Seirawan explains it, in the glossary of his "Winning Chess" series : "Castling allows a player to move his King out of the center (the main theater of action in the opening) to the flank, where the King can be protected by pawns. Additionally, castling develops a Rook." So, following Seirawan (and I think these are more or less the original ideas behind castling), there are two elements in castling : to ensure the safety of the King, this while developing a Rook (castling being thus simultaneously a defensive and an offensive move).

And, in my opinion, the problem, in some Chess960 positions, is that castling becomes a completely arbitrary move, which can be useful, but don't answer to any clear concept or idea : you just evaluate the position before castling and after castling, and assess if castling will be useful or not. (This besides the first-move-castling problem that I developed previously on this page.)

For example, in the Wikipedia article about Chess960 recommanded by Frederic Friedel, the castling example given (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960#Castling_rules) isn't satisfying for me : for the a-side castling, the King is on a more central square after castling than before it (quite in opposition with the idea of ensuring the safety of the King by castling), and, for h-side castling, the castled rook was more centred before castling than after it (this having for a consequence than castling, in this position, isn't anymore a developing move for the rook, but will probably much rather be some sort of an "undeveloping move" : this seems to me to be quite paradoxical in view of castling's original concept).

Besides my "Chess18" idea, a possible solution could be to decide that for a-side castling, the King would be placed on the b-file and the Rook on the c-file (and not on the c and d files as presently), this while adding two more rules : that 1) in the initial position, the King can only be placed on the c, d, e, and f files and the Rooks on the a or b files, for the first Rook, and on the g or h files, for the second Rook and that 2) the King and Rook can never be placed on contiguous files in the initial position (to avoid first-move castlings). I didn't calculate the number of remaining positions, but I think that, with this system, they would still be fairly numerous.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/2/2018 07:30
@ celeje : "The article twice or more called the castling "complex", "not easy to comprehend", etc. so maybe commenters are responding to that." Quite true. I completely forgot that this was in the article. But, in fact, this aspect doesn't seem to really bother anyone (besides, perhaps, Frederic Friedel himself !?!?), because I think that there isn't one single commentator who affirms that the castling is too complex, in Chess960.

"As for whether castling is "inharmonious" or "ugly", I think that's just a matter of familiarity." This can indeed play a part. But I also think nonetheless that some Chess960 positions result in unsatisfying castlings as in the last example I gave on this subject : I don't see how a position in which the two players will inevitably begin the game by castling can be satisfying ; it doesn't feel serious at all : the first move is a farce, a "non-move"... And I remember I have already seen other Chess960 positions in which castling gave more than strange results, so I still consider that this is a real problem that would need to be addressed...
celeje celeje 3/2/2018 07:01
@Petrarlsen on castling:

The article twice or more called the castling "complex", "not easy to comprehend", etc. so maybe commenters are responding to that. I don't think whether it's "hard" or "easy" really matters. In the match, the commentators got confused by it at least once & it was overlooked a few times, but I don't see that as either good or bad.
As for whether castling is "inharmonious" or "ugly", I think that's just a matter of familiarity. I think when the regular castling in the regular game was introduced, people probably reacted the same way for the same reason. It wasn't familiar to them.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/2/2018 03:54
I globally quite agree with koko48's last post.

Two general points : 1) As celeje explained on a post on this page, Chess960 (or an improved version of Chess960) can quite well exist alongside traditional chess, without any necessity of chosing once and for all between the two. 2) In my opinion, preference between traditional chess and Chess960 is a matter of taste : in the opening, the advantage of Chess960 is to permit the players to play "on their own", and the advantage of traditional chess is to allow the elaboration of the deep, complex, and sophisticated new openings ideas that top GMs serve us regularly.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/2/2018 03:33
@ geraldsky : "If Paul Morphy and Harry Philsbury are still alive they would play equally against modern players in chess 960"

To consider that all the chess knowledge that has been elaborated since Morphy's and Pillsbury's times hasn't improved the playing level of the best grandmasters seems to me rather incredible...
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 3/2/2018 03:31
I am still very surprised to see commentators addressing a question that hasn't been asked ("I have always failed to see how castling is difficult or hard." - TRM1361 ; "Castling is simple in fischer random. Not sure what the deal is?" - fgkdjlkag) ; indeed, it seems to me quite obvious that any serious player can master Chess960's castling in less than 5 mn. and I really don't think that anyone said anything on this matter.

One more time, the criticism against castling in Chess960 wasn't against a supposed too great complexity of this castling, but about the fact that some Chess960 positions generate, following some players including myself, weird and / or inharmonious castlings. For example, in one of the Carlsen - Nakamura game, the two players castled on move one, and I rather think that every game played with this position between top GMs would follow the same course ; this feels more like a farce than like the beginning of a serious game - what can be the meaning of castling if the players castle on the first move and wouldn't even consider playing any other move ??? This is why, as I explained in a previous post, I consider that it would be better to apply randomness only for the Queen, the Bishops and the Knights, and not for the King and the Rooks - to keep "normal castling" and avoid those much too weird castlings resulting from some of these Chess960 positions.
koko48 koko48 3/2/2018 03:15
The way I see it, Chess960 is not that different from traditional chess. In traditional chess, no matter how many theoretical or previously analyzed moves you play, you (almost always) eventually reach a unique position. Or unique to the player: A position he or she hasn't seen before.

The only difference is that with Chess960, you get the 'unique' position earlier. But as the game progresses well into the middlegame, the Chess960 positions start to look like positions from a traditional game

Chess960 doesn't eliminate preparation, just makes it less of a factor. Opening theory will eventually expand for Chess960 as well...but the opening theory will expand more slowly, because of course there are 959 more starting positions

So in essence chess theory will go back to the way it was in the late 1800s or early 1900s in traditional chess....when modern opening theory was in its infancy, and there as much more creativity in the early stages of the game
geraldsky geraldsky 3/2/2018 02:08
If Paul Morphy and Harry Philsbury are still alive they would play equally against modern players in chess 960
Mr TambourineMan Mr TambourineMan 3/2/2018 01:32
FRC is an option that should be different than usual chess! Could you imagine it's normal chess that has a problem? Fredrich Friedel can certainly write such an article, and please do.

As far as the so-called problems for FRC are concerned, it aint a single one. Or I'm only able to see that in the Nakamura-Carlsen match they'll hade the idea of alternating and play the same starting pos. with both black and White. That created more problems than it was intended to solve.

Unfortunately, the match was dumbed down by the Norwegian TV company NRK as they demanded the games to be played without increments only to fit the entire TV tab. That if anything else shows the status chess are currently at. Can you imagine an ice hockey game with effective playing time (as in fotball; soccer). Well Germany then might whould have had a chance winning....

I myself enjoyed seeing Carlsen go down as he tried to win R + B against R. Yes, one could say that one of Carlsen's many psychological problems was revealed.
fons3 fons3 3/2/2018 09:44
The problem with Chess960 might be that the ChessBase database would become useless!
elmerdssngalang elmerdssngalang 3/2/2018 09:04
The basic truths: (1) In the long run, the best players of traditional chess will remain the best players of FRC or Chess960. (2) Chess players will follow where the money is. Therefore, place the big money on Chess960 and soon it will gain popularity among the best traditional chess players. One great advantage to be gained is that more players from lower ranks can be allowed to compete with the best ones on a more level playing field.
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 3/2/2018 08:23
I agree with the majority of the commentators, none of the so-called problems described in the article are actually problems:

Castling is simple in fischer random. Not sure what the deal is?

Commentating on a standard game + a fischer random game at the same time was the issue above. It's like commentating on chess and checkers at the same time, is it going to make sense? There was no issue with the commentary at the recent Carlsen-Nakamura match. Besides, one game was at move 20 and one game was at move 4. Furthermore, there are many tournaments where the commentators pass over many games.

Regarding win rates - there is not enough data, as someone pointed out the traditional starting position gives 42% for white. Even if it is true, the results will average out as all players get equal whites and blacks overall. No one complaints in poker what the lineup in the starting table is, or the position of the players (which does impact the results). These factors average out over time.

About "no incentive to look for an improvement" because the position will never occur again - that is exactly the same for traditional chess! No one will ever get the exact middlegame/endgame position ever again unless it has traded down to very minimal material. In Fischer Random the only difference is in the opening, that it is original and cannot be memorized, and isn't that exactly the point of Fischer Random??


But the big question is, what happened to the Fischer-Anand match?
Mawin Mawin 3/2/2018 06:55
I have suggested that players randomize the pieces themselves. The players may, before play begins, swap places of the king + queen and another piece except the rooks. The castling rules are the same as in Chess960. One can choose between different methods. If one wants only mirrored positions, as in Chess960, then White is compelled to mirror Black's relocation of pieces, before making his own relocation move. Otherwise, non-mirrored positions are produced. It gives rise to numerous unbalanced positions, and it coincides with the real battle situation. At least for training purposes, this could be a good idea. What appeals to chess players, I think, is that they remain in control, as they can themselves choose their preferred setup. I wrote an article about it here:

"Relocation variants - rearranging the initial array"
http://mlwi.magix.net/bg/relocationvariants.htm
ketchuplover ketchuplover 3/2/2018 05:26
www.itsyourturn.com has screen chess & crazy screen chess if anyone here is interested
celeje celeje 3/2/2018 04:29
@kbala:

The Carlsen-Nakamura match indicates what you say about professionals is not true. It looks like the order of players on a Chess960 ratings list if they all played it would be very similar to the order of the traditional chess ratings list.

2600+ GM Eric Hansen told a story where he was playing against a 2000 or 2200 player and was struggling because it was going down that guy's prepared line. He said he had to survive 30 moves "before he actually got to play the guy" because until then the memorized moves were GM moves.
boorchess boorchess 3/2/2018 03:13
Another advantage of placement chess (or pre chess, Bronstein chess, Baseline, etc) is that you can do handicapping! Player A can place his king first for example.

The theory of tabiyas. It is such a shame that this variant does not exist on any of the online servers...
kbala kbala 3/2/2018 01:35
Classical chess is better for professionals who only play chess and nothing else. Fischer random chess is better for amateurs and semi-professionals who do not have the time to learn computer-based analysis 8 hours a day, and want to play against professionals. When amateurs play between themselves then it is probably irrelevant which is the starting position. FRC is more suitable for talents, classical for workers.
KWRegan KWRegan 3/1/2018 09:15
Agreeing with Ken Neat and "boorchess" above---and now I see Grimmell73 and "fons3" referencing them and including (not-)my link to what is really just combining Bronstein's and Fischer's ideas: http://www.chessvariants.com/diffsetup.dir/baselinef.html
celeje celeje 3/1/2018 08:02
TRM1361: "But for goodness sake stop talking about polluting Chess960 with your preconceived notions of "how it should be" which are drawn from regular chess."

Yes, I agree that too many are bringing preconceived notions. They are just familiar with the traditional game. If by some accident they were familar with something else they would be insisting that is "how it should be".


boorchess: "The idea of teaching randomization to a young player is really distasteful."

This is very strange. Young players don't need to be "taught randomization". Do you teach kids how to toss coins or roll dice? You don't have to introduce them to chess960 at all if you don't want. That doesn't mean chess960 doesn't have a place.
boorchess boorchess 3/1/2018 06:11
http://www.quantumgambitz.com/blog/chess/cga/bronstein-chess-pre-chess-shuffle-chess

Fischerrandom lacks harmony and the idea of teaching randomization to a young player is really distasteful. Just allow the plays to set up the back row as they please and we can still have classical chess, random and an even wider theoretical debate of vast starting positions.