Dubov: "The only way to change anything in Russia is a revolution"

by ChessBase
3/31/2022 – Vladimir Putin uses athletes for his propaganda. But Russian chess grandmaster Daniil Dubov is standing up to the Russian leader and the war in Ukraine. In an interview with Europe's premier news magazine, the 25-year-old explains why he is willing to take that risk. "Nuclear war could break out and I could miss the end of the world while analysing the Italian opening." | Photo: Jacek Prondzynski/Newspix/Imago

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The interview was conducted by Florian Pütz and posted on Sunday on the SPIEGEL news page. It has thankfully been translated into English and is not behind a paywall. This is what Daniil Dubov said:

  • "You probably think that Russia is a bad country and we are bad people. But there is a large number of people who share the same values as you do in Europe." When the military actions started they were just shocked. 44 Russian chess players published a letter opposing military action on the territory of Ukraine. Daniil confirms that it was partially written by him, "but it came about through teamwork. If it gets me in trouble, so be it." He does not consider himself a political opponent of Putin — he simply loves his country and criticises things because he has the right to do so.
     
  • On the course of the war, Daniil thinks it cannot get any worse for Russia. The consequences will be long and unpleasant, no matter where the conflict will go. He tells his friends that he is Russian, but against what is happening.
     
  • He can feel the West's sanctions against Russia, but can live with them. He was unable to receive his prize money for the first Grand Prix tournament in February because of the problems with banking transactions.
     
  • He was not fully concentrated and motivated when playing in the Berlin Grand Prix. He is depressed, and finds it hard to prepare for games when one has to skim the news every three minutes.

Daniil Dubov, 25, is one of the best Russian chess grandmasters. In 2018, he won the World Rapid Chess Championship. Because of his creative style of play, world champion Magnus Carlsen brought him onto his team as a second. Dubov lives in Moscow. | Photo: ANTON VAGANOV / REUTERS

  • About moving the 2022 Olympiad from Moscow to Chennai, India he thinks that FIDE had to make the decision. And if an opponent refuses to play against him because he is Russian, he would understand their decision.
     
  • About Sergey Karjakin, who has been supporting Putin and Russian propaganda, it is shameful. "I'm pretty sure Karjakin is doing this mainly for his own benefit, to pursue a political career. Maybe because he thinks it's right, maybe because he thinks it's useful, most likely a bit of both."
     
  • On FIDE President Arkady Dvorkovich speaking out against the war in Ukraine (and being accused of treason in Russia) Daniil says Dvorkovich is in a "very, very difficult position," especially since the Kremlin has publicly demanded that the FIDE revoke Karjakin's ban. "I really don't want to be in his shoes. Anatoly Karpov is more powerful than Karjakin because he sits in the Duma, while Karjakin is just an Instagram blogger."
     
  • On his (and Alexander Grischuk's) protest for the release of Kremlin opponent Alexei Navalny: "You probably think it took a lot of courage, but it doesn't. Basically, you wait for the police to take action and attack people. Then you go home. If you don't leave in time, the police catch you. Then it becomes uncomfortable. It may sound cynical, but quite honestly, I don't want to be beaten for a goal for which I see no chance."

Daniil knows that what he is saying is really dangerous, but thinks the only way to change anything in Russia is a revolution, which he personally doesn't want. "I don't want Russians to kill Russians. Putin and his actions are clearly supported by the majority of Russians."

He finds it hard to think about his future in chess:

Nuclear war could break out. I could miss the end of the world while analysing the Italian opening.

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lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/5/2022 12:51
@ChessTalk 5. "Nobody cares if Ukraine is a perfect government."

Actually people do care. First of all, I obviously care about Ukraine's problems, as described in my earlier comments. Yet, if it was only me who cared about Ukraine's misdeeds, then people would not feel the need to attack me for it. The very fact that I'm being attacked for criticising the Ukraine proves to me that this criticism is necessary. Also, you seem to be okay with the idea that I may be criticized. So, if it is okay that I am criticized, then how is it not okay to criticize Ukraine? Is Ukraine above criticism.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/5/2022 12:49
@ChessTalk @ChessTalk 3. Believe it or not, I'm presenting my point of view. Yes, there are points in the Russian propaganda that are in line with my criticism, yet, Ukraine really committed human-rights abuses. So, the Russian propaganda first of all takes the real misdeeds of Ukraine, magnifies it and adds Russian lies to it to demonize the country. In my arguments I was doing honest criticism, that is, if I am wrong about anything, then it is due to an honest mistake. Yet, several people suggested that I'm a Russian troll. That's not criticism; it is personal attack, accusation and insult. If you want this discourse to be civilized, then you surely disagree with the personal attacks against my person, even if you believe that I'm completely wrong.

4. People were criticising me for not being "outspoken-enough" about Russia. Yet, I have been critical towards Russia and denounced the invasion and atrocities perpetrated by them. It is unnecessary from my part to go further, since we mainly agree about Russia, so it would be unnecessary to argue against some Russian-friendly position that did not exist in this comment-section. The only thing I could fulfill by criticising Russia further than I already did would be some approval by Arzi and others. However, I do not seek Arzi's approval. I'm presenting my position and I do not let others pressurize me into saying anything. If someone would appear here arguing for the Russian invasion, then I would argue against that. Yet, since here only a pro-Ukrainian side was presented, I argue against what I consider to be incorrect in that.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/5/2022 12:48
@ChessTalk Yet, now he behaved the same way as Quanber or Aighearach. It is also invalid to take out things from context. For instance, Orbán in his victory speech said that his side had to fend off several political actors and among them he listed Zelensky as well. If you look into the events of the Hungarian elections, you will see that Zelensky clearly supported the Hungarian opposition in the hope that should they win, Hungary would be more willing to provide military help to Ukraine. So, Zelensky has taken a position in the Hungarian elections. It is clear to me that Arzi is frustrated, but eventually he will calm down. When he is not angry as now, he is capable to make sensible arguments as well. Yet, answering the primitive hatred and personal attacks that he displayed here would be a waste of time on my part. If he wants to have a discussion with me, then he needs to behave in a civilized manner.

He raises a few topics and when I respond to them, he criticizes me for being too long, yet, his answer is longer than the comments he criticized for being too long. I'm not interested to cut down the content of my answer just to please someone who does not will to engage in a civilized discourse and displays hostility towards my person and nation instead. It is unelegant to behave like Arzi did here. It should be easy to agree with me on this, because you or anybody else could be similarly attacked for whatever opinion someone else disagrees with. We should reject hostile and unfriendly behavior in general, if we care about the level of the discussion.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/5/2022 12:48
@ChessTalk let me make a few points in response:

1. Criticizing fellow commenters is an invalid way to participate in a discussion, since my person (or any other commenter) is not part of the topic. If one truly believes that he is right, then he should present strong arguments for his position instead of bringing in off-topics.

2. Even though critcizing other commenters is not a valid debate tactic, there is a distinguishable line between sensible criticism and hatred. For instance, in your last comment you have been criticising me, which is still not very relevant to the topic, but since it was a sensible criticism showing genuine concerns, it deserves a proper and friendly answer. The same can be said about Frits Fritschy's comment, which focused on what he considers to be blind spots in my view in general. I have answered his points as well. Yet, by contrast, Arzi displayed hate. He made comments on ill faith about my person and the Hungarian nation as well. Even if you think that I am wrong, at least we should agree that it's invalid to say that Hungarians should change their flag to Russian colors. It is also invalid to bring up Hungary into this discussion, since we speak about Russia and the Ukraine, so, even if the Hungarian people and Hungary would be as corrupt and evil as Arzi depicts us, that would be irrelevant to the discussion. We should furthermore agree that the dignity of all members of this discussion should be respected. Arzi was in agreement with me when I spoke up against Quanber's and Aighearach's comments that attacked his person.
arzi arzi 4/5/2022 07:42
To Lajosarpad some news, - Russia's "Google" obscures information about Butcha - sunny city pictures instead of bodies. The difference between Google and the popular search engine Yandex in Russia is startling. The difference between Google and Yandex is startling when you search for search engine image search services in the Cyrillic spelling of a Ukrainian city. Where Google displays images of a war, torn city and a body lying on the street, Yandex’s image search is topped by a variety of attractions and sunny images of the city’s parks.-

Maybe you have used Yandex as a search engine, lajosarpad? Maybe there are no war in Ukraine? Check that with your Yandex.
arzi arzi 4/5/2022 06:47
Lajosarpad:"JanneKejo there are no gender pronouns in Hungarian either. However, we have an English discourse here."

Also some kind of intelligence is needed in there. What about Butcha? Atrocities in Ukrainian Butcha began to be revealed over the weekend as Western journalists got to witness the devastation after Russian troops withdrew from the city. Why have you been so quiet about this, Lajosarpad? Yes, I know those war criminals are not from Azov battalion but from your favorite energy supplier, Russian.

To ChessTalk, it doesn´t matter if lajosarpad is against the war as long as Hungary´s energy source is saved. Money talks human value walks. No one hates lajosarpad, too much work for that. Lajosarpad has delusions that everyone hates him/her. On the internet you can be anyone, even lajosarpad, he or she.
arzi arzi 4/5/2022 06:25
Lajosarpad:"The topic is Dubov's statement about Russia heading the wrong way and, according to him, only a revolution can change this direction. "

Did you intentionally leave an important part of Dubov’s message? He also said he don´t want the war between Russians.
ChessTalk ChessTalk 4/5/2022 03:45
lajos, not necessarily hate, maybe criticism though. Nobody cares if Ukraine is a perfect government. The US isn't perfect, the Russians are far from it. Maybe Hungary is perfect, just depends on the veracity of landslide. Ofc, Iceland is perfect. I guess I'm wrong. But you are using talking points that are used as a justification for war according to Russia. So there it is. You are against the war but echo Putin's justifications. Like stopping racism or putting a Z on tanks ;)
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/4/2022 03:40
@JanneKejo there are no gender pronouns in Hungarian either. However, we have an English discourse here.

The topic is Dubov's statement about Russia heading the wrong way and, according to him, only a revolution can change this direction. Furthermore, he stands up against the invasion Russia perpetrates in Ukraine. My position is that Russia is indeed going to the wrong path and the attack on Ukraine is unacceptable. While Dubov has a point, Ukraine is not a champion of human rights either. Ukraine's efforts for defending itself are heroic. Yet, the political elite of Ukraine is not something to be admired in my opinion.

I'm receiving hate for criticizing Ukraine. Which is very telling, it clearly suggests that according to those who are outraged by my criticism, Ukraine should be above criticism. In my view this is clear support to everything Ukraine perpetrates. Yet, no amount of hate can break my mood today.
arzi arzi 4/4/2022 02:58
Lajosarpad:"Päivi Räsänen WAS on trial and he was acquitted." I thought Päivi Räsänen is a she."

Wow! You nailed it, I´m wordless. Yes, but did you know that there is NO he or she for man or woman in our language? We have only "hän" to both gender. So, it is possible that I sometimes use a mistakenly wrong word. I hope you did not lost your desire for life because of my mistake?

Answers to your questions:
1. I don´t know. I see only Päivi Räsänen. It was yours remark.
2. No I did, but you gave me an answer about Päivi Räsänen. Was that all I write?
3. Did I not too?
4.You stated that my 3818-charactered response was too long. Yet, while you criticized me for being too long, you have used up 4482, and you try to depict me as a hypocrite."

Actually, in my posts, almost half of the texts are usually yours, and I gladly share the honor with you.

Spend as much time as you want on Ukraine’s minority problems, as long as you remember the problems of your own country. Also that Azov battalion you are talking about all the time is getting boring. Where is the Wagner group in your speeches? Tell me, what battalion is fighting now in Mariupol against Russian? Wagner?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/4/2022 01:43
@arzi

"Päivi Räsänen WAS on trial and he was acquitted." I thought Päivi Räsänen is a she.

"Plllllleeeeeeseeee! Try not to write me to death."

I tried to be amiable towards you, even though you were clearly bringing in an off-topic and in a hostile manner. I have answered all your points, yet, after you started the discussion, you say that my answer was too long.

1. You brought up an off-topic
2. You challenged me to a debate
3. I have amiably responded to you
4. You stated that my 3818-charactered response was too long. Yet, while you criticized me for being too long, you have used up 4482, and you try to depict me as a hypocrite. I quote the Bible "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.", since it's still legal where I live. People are not prosecuted for quoting the Bible.

I understand that you are frustrated that your woke views do not dominate Hungary and the grapes are sour. Yet, you cannot erase the smile from my face today. You can channel your frustration somewhere else, what you have already done here is indistinguishable from trolling. I'm sorry, but I will rather celebrate than respond to the hatred that you display. I'm celebrating today. Cheers!
arzi arzi 4/4/2022 10:40
To lajosarpad news:"Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán named Zelensky one of his opponents in his election victory speech on Sunday. Other opponents he considered were the domestic and foreign left, the bureaucrats in Brussels, the international media and the “Soros Empire. George Soros is a Hungarian-born American millionaire. He supported Hungary's path to democracy. Soros is a Jew, which is not overlooked by Orbán supporters who hate him. By the way, so is Zelensky."

His (Viktor Orbán) money for Hungary is EU money, but not EU values. Yes, money is GOOOOD, values are BAAAAD.
arzi arzi 4/4/2022 09:56
Lajosarpad:"5. Summary: You can visit Hungary and see it for yourself. It is a free and nice country, where the opposition is free to express their views, even though they were unpopular this time."

Actually, you can visit Ukraine and see it yourself. Are those people fighting for their country against Russia or not? What does this fighting mean if Ukraine is not the free state? Is this the continuation of the Tsarist Russia civil war from 1917?
arzi arzi 4/4/2022 09:49
Lajosarpad: Plllllleeeeeeseeee! Try not to write me to death. We have already talked about minority. Could you define me the word minority? Maybe we in Finland and Hungary have different meaning to this word? What about your meaning to "Ukraine is not really a free state"? It must also apply to Hungary.

"You can think what you want and express your political views freely. Yet, we had an election yesterday and the Hungarians have spoken."

Did Ukraine have something like that too, of course not at the same time?

"The presidential election in Ukraine in 2019 was held in two parts: the first round on March 31 and the second round on April 21. The turnout was 63.48% in the first round and 62.3% in the second round. The percentages are considered high in the country."

"21.10.2014: EU-positive parties winning Ukrainian elections. According to preliminary data, in the parliamentary elections in Ukraine yesterday, pro-Western parties are winning."

Do these results mean that there are something "fishy" about in the counting of votes? Does the great will to defend Ukraine against Russia with guns and other weapons mean that the people do not really want to defend the ruling leadership but Russia?

By the way, here are some nice words from Hungary to Ukraine:

"Viktor Orban, who won the election, called the President of Ukraine an opponent."

Now we know who is against Ukraine and who is at the same side with Russia. Maybe you should change the color of your flag in Hungary? To same colour as in Russia?
arzi arzi 4/4/2022 09:26
Lajosarpad:"arzi it is interesting to see that while you comment on an article about Russia, you bash Hungary, presumably because you know I'm a Hungarian and the grapes are sour now that the election's outcome was not to your liking. We agree about your point that the atrocities committed by Russia are terrible. We both denounce it. Yet, from a country which prosecuted Päivi Räsänen for quoting from the Bible, you bring in the off-topic of Hungary. So, I will focus here on the red herring that you have brought, Hungary:"

Do you know why is it interesting? You , Lajosarpad, talking about minority problems in Ukraine but not in Hungary. Also it is very interesting that the current political power (RUSSIAN-FRIEND) has once again received a new 4-year term in Hungary. How is Hungary´s gas and other Russian energy business going on? I hope Putin is still a good friend to Hungary? Hungary is not a part of EU but Russia. How about a new name: Hungary-Russia? Like BelaRussia.

Yes, Päivi Räsänen WAS on trial and he was acquitted. Law and order. Something you can only dream in Hungary and Russia.
Do you know anything about law? We will not put people in jail in Finland until the outcome of the trial. In Hungary, perhaps, is that being done?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/4/2022 09:00
@arzi 3. You claim that Orbán is a friend of Putin. As a matter of fact, Hungary aims to maintain good relations with all countries and this is why Orbán had good relations with Putin prior to the war. But, even prior the war, Hungary has voted several sanctions against Russia and, especially since the war, Hungary has voted ALL sanctions against Russia, except the proposed sanctions in the energy sector, since 85% of gas in Hungary is bought from Russia. If we would not buy Russian gas, then the Hungarian economy would slow down in seconds and eventually stop. The Biden administration also buys Uranium from Russia and does not intend to stop doing so. Is Biden also a friend of Putin? If you dislike the fact that Hungary buys Russian gas, then the solution is very simple: provide a better deal for Hungary. Diversifying the energy import requires large-scale infrastructural changes, as a prerequisite and that cannot be done overnight.

4. "I also think that Hungary is not, really a free state."

You can think what you want and express your political views freely. Yet, we had an election yesterday and the Hungarians have spoken. Hungarians have freely chosen their leadership in a democratic election. Questioning the Hungarian's right to choose the current (or any) government is antidemocratic. So, while you are free to express your views, it would be more elegant to just accept that Hungarians do not desire to live by the standards that you would like to impose.

5. Summary: You can visit Hungary and see it for yourself. It is a free and nice country, where the opposition is free to express their views, even though they were unpopular this time.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/4/2022 09:00
@arzi 2. You claim that Hungary oppresses the rights of sexual minorities. As a matter of fact, sexual minorities are free to live as they please, they also have a yearly organized pride parade and even the writer of the constitution (Szájer József) and one of the most important former advisors of the government (Arthur J. Finkelstein) are/were gay. The main debate between the LGBTQI community and the government are focused on three issues:

2.1. The bond between gay people is not considered to be marriage in Hungary. Instead, it is called "bejegyzett élettárs", which roughly means "registered partners" and that covers quite similar rights to marriage (if a person dies, then his/her partner inherits just like in marriage). It's just not called "marriage".

2.2. Gay couples cannot adopt children.

2.3. Sexual propaganda (straight and gay) is not allowed to be presented to underage kids.

Is this oppression? You seem to consider this to be oppressive and you have a right to form a political opinion. I don't consider this to be oppressive, because on the individual level one is free to live as he/she likes and be openly gay.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/4/2022 08:58
@arzi it is interesting to see that while you comment on an article about Russia, you bash Hungary, presumably because you know I'm a Hungarian and the grapes are sour now that the election's outcome was not to your liking. We agree about your point that the atrocities committed by Russia are terrible. We both denounce it. Yet, from a country which prosecuted Päivi Räsänen for quoting from the Bible, you bring in the off-topic of Hungary. So, I will focus here on the red herring that you have brought, Hungary:

1. You claim it is a "corrupt state". Corruption is present in all states, including Hungary and Finland. Calling a country a "corrupt state" is a claim that assumes that the state is corrupt in its essence, that is, the institutions are not working due to the corruption, the GDP decreases and politicians can get away with corruption. In the case of Hungary, we see that the police, the hospitals, the schools and other institutions are working; its GDP is increasing (see https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/gdp-growth-annual), the standards of living increased, there were large increases in wages last year and politicians, even members of the government are not getting away easily with corruption (see the Völner-case, a top politician from the ruling party, who lost his seat in the parliament and is being prosecuted for corruption, for example). If Hungary was a corrupt state, then standards of living would not increase and people would be dissatisfied with the government. However, yesterday's election resulted in a 2/3 majority for the ruling party, which proves that the Hungarian people do not consider Hungary to be a corrupt state.
arzi arzi 4/4/2022 07:28
Lajosarpad:"So, we do not really have a point of debate about Russia, as we both denounce it (whatever card Putin plays out), Ukraine is not really a free state. It is a very corrupt state that oppresses minorities, have political backing for expropriation of Russian property, a language law that oppresses all minorities, bans 11 parties, censors media and supports the Azov battalion."

It seems to be like Hungary,as a corrupt state, oppress minority (sexual) rights, also a great friend of Russian (because of enegry supply), even in this criminal war time in Ukraine. I also think that Hungary is not, really a free state. Whrere did you forget the Wagner-group, Putin´s favorite "child"? And how about the latest news in Butsha?


News:"THE WESTERN WORLD awoke to the horror of Butsha on Sunday morning.

The Russian army had withdrawn from a city of about 30,000 inhabitants and left behind an unimaginable destruction.

According to the mayor of the city, 280 bodies have been found in mass graves. According to reporters from the French news agency AFP, at least 20 bodies have been found on the streets of the city, some of which have their hands tied together. According to the mayor, some people have been shot in the back.

These are war crimes."
Masquer Masquer 4/3/2022 11:26
Too many people get caught up in the dialectic of the 'good' vs 'bad' guys, taking propaganda at face value as some form of 'gospel'.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/3/2022 01:33
@ChessTalk

"People know Russia is behind the mis-information."

Both the Russian and the Ukrainian side uses propaganda and shamelessly lie about the situation. It is very difficult to know the facts when both the sides are more than motivated to blend reality to their favor. Sadly, we will only know what exactly happened after the war, when things will be properly investigated.

Now we know that Russia invaded Ukraine without proper reason to do so and that both countries, Russia and Ukraine engaged into total war, puttin human rights and ethics aside.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/3/2022 01:31
@Frits Fritschy I assumed that it was obvious that I do not support Russia in this conflict. However, the fact that Russia is the greater evil does not validate Ukraine's misadventures with human rights. So, we do not really have a point of debate about Russia, as we both denounce it (whatever card Putin plays out), Ukraine is not really a free state. It is a very corrupt state that oppresses minorities, have political backing for expropriation of Russian property, a language law that oppresses all minorities, bans 11 parties, censors media and supports the Azov battalion. Do I have a blind spot in the criticism of Putin? You seem to think so. But, even if you were right in your criticism directed towards me, my alleged blind spot would only mean that I'm not criticizing the Russian dictator as much as you would have liked. But I do criticize him. I do not consider the situation of the Donbass to be a valid casus belli if you assumed that. But, even though we agree that it is not a valid cause for war, the people in the Donbass have never voted for Zelensky. If we agree on Zelensky not being a "Mother Theresa" and Putin being a dictator and an invader, then we are not really far in our assessment. My position here is that a greater evil invaded a lesser evil. I'm not a fan of either side.

@ChessTalk if you read my previous comments carefully, then you will realize that i did not assumed the Russian position to be factually accurate. I referred both to the Russian and Ukrainian position and kept my distance from the subjectivity of either side. Also, to clarify: I do not assume that the Russian side made cosmetics on the numbers. I do not know whether that is the case. But I certainly not exclude that possibility.
Frits Fritschy Frits Fritschy 4/2/2022 11:13
Lajos, I'm quite aware of all the things you mention, as they are also mentioned in Western media. Only today, the Dutch newspaper I read had an article about Zhelensky not exactly being a Mother Teresa (maybe even Mother Teresa is not quite a Mother Teresa...).
However, in your lengthy comments (which, as I wrote, won't discuss with you; others have been doing that), you fail to react to one important thing: that Putin 'played the nationality card' as the reason to invade and destroy much of Ukraine. The invasion of Ukraine was days after the recognition by Russia of the Donbas areas independence. Your discourse on Ukraine misdemeanors in the Donbas area !at this moment! (italics intended) supports Putin's view that this was a legitimate casus belli.
arzi arzi 4/2/2022 09:12
No, lajosarpad, there are not two parts of the conflict, but only one. That is your mistake. True, after attacking on Ukraine there are two different parts of fighting against each other but only one of them did start the war. They did not start the war together. All discussions what happened before the war in Ukraine is useless. It is like trying to stop the war in Ukraine by talking just about WW2 and WW1. Useless.
ChessTalk ChessTalk 4/2/2022 06:13
Lajos, you bring up the Russian sponsored referendums as fact. Ofc, you also mention Russian "cosmetics" on the numbers. That certainly invalidates the fact and puts in in the realm of Russian propaganda. It's all about little green men with no affiliation. People know Russia is behind the mis-information. We know it's a war, not a special operation. Putin's Russia has been on the down low for so long it can't stand up.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 12:33
@chessbibliophile Donetsk:

The Russian side claims that the turnout was nearly 75% and that 2,252,867 voted for self-rule and 256,040 voted against.

So, what we do know:

- the Russian side had factual knowledge about the referendums
- the Ukrainian side did not have factual knowledge about the referendums, they had estimations instead
- it is possible that the Russian side was doing "cosmetics" on the numbers
- there was no way to internationally fact-check the Russian claim

"The demand for accession came essentially from the elite who saw a loss of their privileges when a new government came to power in Kyiv in 2014."

It was a revolution/coup that overthrew the democratically elected Janukovich with force. It is important to note that the reason for this was that Janukovich backed down from Ukraine's original intention to join the EU, probably due to Russian pressure.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 12:33
@chessbibliophile "The number of Russians in this region seeking accession to Russia even in 2014 was less than half of the population."

There are conflicting claims about the referendum.

Luhansk:

Russian claim: the turnout was 81%
Ukrainian claim: the turnout was 24%

96.2% of the participants voted for separation. What you, Chessbibliophile did in your comment, was that you assumed that the Ukrainian claim is true. You can do so and you may be right. But it would be more honest to clarify that you rely on your opinion rather than hard facts. After all, the side which actually knew the facts of the referendum was the Russian side. So, they were either honestly presenting them, or they were lying about them. The Ukrainian side, not being part of the organization of the referendum only had estimations. And you present those estimations as facts.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 12:33
A very good timeline can be seen with both Russian and Ukrainian atrocities committed in the Donbass. I will focus on two quotes in order to prove that Ukraine committed atrocities in the Donbass.

https://www.fpri.org/article/2019/10/five-years-of-war-in-the-donbas/

Quote 1 from the article:
"A Ukrainian military operation recaptures several cities in eastern Ukraine, including Kramatorsk and Sloviansk"
"Ukrainian forces advance into Donetsk and Luhansk provinces and besiege the city of Luhansk, threatening the military defeat of the separatists"

Were these peaceful measures, without atrocities? Is this what we are supposed to believe?

Quote 2 from the article:
"Ukraine elects Volodymy Zelensky as president, separatist-controlled regions do not participate in the election."

So, does Volodymyr Zelensky represent the people in the Donbass? After all, these regions did not participate in the election.
-
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 12:32
@Frits Fritschy

The National Corps, the political representation of the Azov battalion can operate freely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Corps

"The people of the 'liberated' areas are not quite better off with their 'leaders'"

I never said they are better off. The point I was making was that there were atrocities committed by the Ukraine. That's a claim that does not depend on the quality of separatist leadership. As a matter of fact, the people's republics in eastern Ukraine are communistic dictatorships to be founded. Yet, if the people in the Donbass are really supporting these, then I can see why they are being formed. There were internationally unrecognized referendums in the regions. Maybe reorganizing the referendums, but, this time with international watchers would clarify what the people actually want.

@Chessbibliophile

"This relates to the posts on the Donbas conflict here. It is misleading to suggest that Ukraine committed atrocities on the Russians in the Donbas region or that Ukraine government has been killing them with NATO support. As a result, people there have been deprived of the right to self-determination etc. "

There are two sides: Russian separatists backed by Russia and the Ukrainian side. On the Ukrainian side we see the regular army as well as militant militias, like the Azov battalion. There were quite a lot of atrocities perpetrated by the Ukrainian side, especially by the Azov battalion. Yet, Ukraine supports the Azov battalion https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/05/01/ukr-m01.html

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So, did Ukraine commit atrocities in the Donbas?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/2/2022 12:32
@Frits Fritschy

I would be very much surprised if it would turn out that I was right about everything, so it is quite possible, even probable that I was wrong about many things during my life. Yet, I will focus on the aspects of your comment that are more relevant to the topic.

First of all, you say that despite being an anticommunist (a view that you correctly detected based on my comments) I'm not outspoken-enough about the ex-KGB officer Putin, who seeks to reinstate the Soviet Union. In this very thread I called him a "dictator", the Russian attack a "terrible" "invasion". I have welcomed that Russian atrocities are being exposed and denounced by mainstream media. I have even told Stupido that "I have emphasized that Russia represents the greater evil". I understand that this is not outspoken-enough to your taste, but we should be able to factually agree that I was criticising Russia and Putin in this thread. If you read my comments from other threads, you will see further criticism.

What I did object here was not the criticism of Russia and Putin. I do agree with those. I objected the lack of criticism towards the Ukraine by mainstream media, which also did commit atrocities. To be clear: besides to what the Ukrainian army did during the war and the sieges in the Donbass, I particularly denounce the many atrocities the Azov battalion committed and the Azov battalion is supported by the government. When did Zelensky crack down on the Azov battalion? When did he even denounce them? We do not see anything of the like. Among the 11 banned parties of the Ukraine we see several far-leftist parties, but parties associated to the far-right are good to go.
Frits Fritschy Frits Fritschy 4/1/2022 11:13
Lajos Arpad,
I don't know your personal history. It might be a good guess that you're from a Hungarian minority in some country bordering Hungary. I don't think you're a Kremlin troll, not even in a subtle way. Guys like that don't usually comment on less controversial subjects, that simply is not in their interest zone. Neither do they do any research or give sources, as you do.
However, it seems to me that whenever nationality issues are at stake, you develop serious blind spots, even producing enormities like calling the perfectly French GM Bauer German just because of his name. I don't know whether these blind spots have anything to do with your personal history.
Just get to the wikipedia page on the Donbas region. Wikipedia is not the perfect place for sources, but it is reasonably open to change or comment (just click the 'discussion' tab). The people of the 'liberated' areas are not quite better off with their 'leaders': (former) oligarchs, smugglers and other common criminals; who kill those who oppose them or kill eachother. A lot of problems with the region don't stem from nationality issues, but from socio-economical issues.
I'm not willing to discuss these issues with you and certainly not with some others writing here. However, I hope you will be able to take some more distance to the subject and have the scientific look you seem to be quite capable of on other issues. It seems rather strange to me that an anticommunist like you isn't a bit more outspoken about an ex-KGB officer wanting to revive the Soviet-Union, just because that man is playing the nationality card.
Serse Serse 4/1/2022 06:37
@chessbibliophile Don't waste your time. The kremlin trolls don't read. They are not trained for this. Just to spread their propaganda in a more or less subtle way
chessbibliophile chessbibliophile 4/1/2022 05:43
On Donbas again: It’s more important to understand what happened there than to make unverified accusations against the whole of Ukraine and its people.
I have already mentioned an important book,
“The Donbas Conflict in the Ukraine: Elites, Protest and Partition” by Daria Platonova.
I shall list three other books of interest:
1)”In War Time: Stories from Ukraine” by Tim Judah
2)”The war in Ukraine’s Donbas: Origins, Context and the Future” Edited by David R. Marples
3) “In Isolation:Dispatches from occupied Donbas”by Stanislav Aseyev
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674268791
4) “A Loss:The story of a dead soldier told by his sister”
by Olesya Khromeychuk
http://cup.columbia.edu/book/a-loss/9783838215709
P.S.: For good measure I am also naming one more book and it deals with Crimea.
“Russia’s “Hybrid” Warfare and the Annexation of Crimea” by Kent De Benedictis
Note: Sorry, this is my last comment on this thread. No offence meant.I need to get back to work.
chessbibliophile chessbibliophile 4/1/2022 04:49
@WillScarlett and fellow readers,
This relates to the posts on the Donbas conflict here. It is misleading to suggest that Ukraine committed atrocities on the Russians in the Donbas region or that Ukraine government has been killing them with NATO support. As a result, people there have been deprived of the right to self-determination etc.
The number of Russians in this region seeking accession to Russia even in 2014 was less than half of the population. The demand for accession came essentially from the elite who saw a loss of their privileges when a new government came to power in Kyiv in 2014.* The separatists received military support from Kremlin and for Putin it was a low cost war. The Ukrainian army perforce had to fight against the insurgency. However, the participation of Ukrainian ultra nationalists in the conflict complicated the issue. Rogue militias like the Azov Battalion and their acts did damage the Ukrainian cause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMMXuKB0BoY
There was a lot of blood letting by both sides in this area and many civilians killed.
The insanity of the war is captured here:
http://inter.pyramidefilms.com/pyramidefilms-international-catalogue/donbass.html

*All this is analysed in the book, “The Donbas Conflict in the Ukraine: Elites, Protest and Partition” by Daria Platonova. She also offers facts and figures on the question of support of this region for joining Russia.
skent skent 4/1/2022 04:14
Only respect to Daniil Dubov.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 4/1/2022 03:57
@Stupido there are two sides of the conflict. Depicting one of the sides as the absolute evil and the other as the absolute good never leads to reliable conclusions.

Since I have emphasized that Russia represents the greater evil it is hard to see how I'm "impersonating" Karjakin. Do you claim that Ukraine has not committed any atrocities in Eastern Ukraine or during this conflict? Or what is the exact point of debate between the two of us, besides the ad hominem fallacy you have used?

It is not happening in Russia, because Russia is the invader. I already denounced that. But it seems that if you see an objective and balanced view, then you equate it with uncritical support of Russia. Too bad.

"So why don't you keep your lessons for yourself? "

In other words: I should shut up. Interesting view about the freedom of speech.
Somewhat Experienced Somewhat Experienced 4/1/2022 02:19
So true! A genuine revolution, coming directly from the poor and disenfranchised - not some Bolshevik maneuvering at the top!
arzi arzi 4/1/2022 02:12
News:"According to Russian authorities, Ukraine has struck fuel depots in the city of Belgorod in Russia last night. According to Vyacheslav Gladkov, the governor of the region, the attack was carried out by two Ukrainian combat helicopters. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the attack was not conducive to peace talks between Russia and Ukraine."

Dmitry thinks that it is not allowed to conduct an attack in Russia but only in Ukraine. Why? Because there is no war between Russia and Ukraine but a rescue attempt of Ukraine from neo-nazi terrorists. It is nice thing that peace talks can be done at the same time as Russia is attacking on Ukraine. Maybe the peace talks will lead to real nirvana if Ukraine just surrenders, apologizes for the mess and asks to become part of mother Russia? "Dear President Putin, Koba II, can you wake us all from this nightmare?".
arzi arzi 4/1/2022 12:27
I also do agree that all aspects of the conflict to be seen and heard. What better way to bring at least one aspect to the fore than to get loving and warm President Putin to talk to Chessbase about chess, life in general, and a possible new destination after the rescue of Ukraine. We cannot simply listen to the absurd complaint of the West over the inviolability of state borders. We need new and innovative ideas. The word is free, but not so important alongside the truth, which in turn is changeable.
Peace!
Stupido Stupido 4/1/2022 12:16
@lajosarpad - Your Karjakin impersonation is fantastic.
Meanwhile Ukraine is being partly occupied, partly destroyed, emptied of millions of people, with families broken, children lost, killed or orphans, and so on. Afaik nothing of that kind is happening on Russian soil. So why don't you keep your lessons for yourself?
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