World Championship – out of the box

by Frederic Friedel
9/19/2018 – The match for the highest title in chess is always very exciting. But it is somewhat spoiled if the result is a tie. In previous times it meant that the reigning champion kept his title; later a tiebreak was installed, with rapid chess games, blitz and then Armageddon. Not a satisfactory solution, with the championship not decided by classical games. Werner Keym, a chess problem composer, has an alternate solution, one that like most of his problems is out of the box. Tell us what you think.

Endgames of the World Champions from Fischer to Carlsen Endgames of the World Champions from Fischer to Carlsen

Let endgame expert Dr Karsten Müller show and explain the finesses of the world champions. Although they had different styles each and every one of them played the endgame exceptionally well, so take the opportunity to enjoy and learn from some of the best endgames in the history of chess.

More...

A proposal

Recently we published an article on a unique personality: Werner Keym, a teacher (of French and Latin) and a musician, who in 2010 was elected Mayor of the German city of Meisenheim. In 2014, at 72, he retired from that post to devote more time to his family — he has five grandchildren — and to his hobbies. The foremost of them is problem chess. Keym sent me a signed copy of his most recent English language book, Chess Problems out of the box, which has given me immense enjoyment ever since. 

Werner Keym is one of the most creative problemists I know. He specializes in chess puzzles involving castling, en passant captures, pawn promotion and retrograde analysis. For many years I have enjoyed his problems, which I often encountered. Many have the advantage of not being prone to instant solution by chess engines. They force you to think. Go buy a copy of Chess Problems out of the box — it's just €10 / US $12 (plus €2/$4 for postage). Outrageously good value for money. 

On page 184 of his book, Keym makes an interesting out-of-the-box proposal regarding Chess World Championship matches. It was (partially) brought on by the 2016 match in New York. In the final twelfth game Magnus Carlsen, to the surprise of many, allowed a quick draw with the white pieces. It was a clever decision: the reigning World Champion felt that he was stronger than the Challenger, Sergey Karjakin, in rapid chess, and he proved that this was indeed the case by beating the Russian in the following tiebreak. "I have no objection to this outcome," Keym says. "There has to be a decisive outcome, and that can be achieved with rapid chess, blitz, Armageddon, etc. But it makes me feel uncomfortable that the World Championship in classical chess is finally decided by non-classical games..."

So Werner Keym has made a proposal to modify the way the Championship would be decided: if the result is a tie, don't have the reigning World Champion retain the title, and don't have rapid, blitz and Armageddon games, in the end, to decide who gets the crown. There is another way (we quote directly from his book)...


The Chess World Championship match should be decided neither by rapid chess nor by blitz chess nor by Armageddon, but instead by classic chess. 

Proposal: The competition consists of two parts, prologue and match.

Prologue

  1. Who plays White in the first game is decided by lot.
  2. There are then 4 rapid chess games. If one player gets 2½ points, the prologue is over.
  3. Otherwise, the result is 2:2, and now 2 blitz chess games will follow. If one player gets 1½ points, the prologue is over.
  4. Otherwise, the result is 1:1, and now further blitz chess games will follow. The first win of a game will end the prologue.
  5. We now have a prologue winner and a prologue loser.

Match

  1. There is an odd number of classic chess games (e.g. 13).
  2. The prologue loser plays White in the odd-numbered games (1, 3, 5, ... 13).
  3. If the prologue loser gets 7 points, he will be the champion.
  4. If the prologue winner gets 6½ points, he will be the champion.

Comments

  • The conditions for the champion and the challenger are equal.
  • The prologue will take 2-4 days.
  • The advantage for the prologue loser is that he has white in the first and the last game.
  • The advantage for the prologue winner is that he wins the championship in case of tie.
  • The championship match is decided by at most 13 classic chess games and there may be much excitement towards the end: in the 13th game the prologue loser has White and must win, whereas the prologue winner has Black and must draw.
  • The match will end by a fixed day. This is important for organizers, sponsors, media, and audience.

Discussion

This proposal is interesting. In the prologue phase, a relatively minor condition for the main match is established, with rapid and blitz games. After that, the match is decided with classical games. It is easily possible that one of the players loses the prologue and gains the title by winning one more game than his opponent. A vaguely similar system was tried in the 2018 Altibox Norway Chess Tournament: it started with a blitz tournament which determined which five of the ten players would have one more game with White in the classic tournament. Fabiano Caruana qualified for the extra white game and won the tournament, ahead of Carlsen, Nakamura, Anand and Wesley So, all of whom had also got the extra White.

One possible modification of the Keym proposal: in closer keeping with the current system it might be better to start with just two rapid chess games and eleven (instead of 13) classical games. This could be the schedule:

  • Saturday: two rapid games, if necessary blitz deciders
  • Sunday: Rest day
  • Monday – Thursday: four games (1-4)
  • Friday: Rest day
  • Saturday – Tuesday: four games (5-8)
  • Wednesday: Rest day
  • Thursday – Saturday: three games (9-11)
  • Sunday: closing ceremony

The match would last two weeks, and in the final (11th) game, if it is necessary, White would need to win, while Black could keep or win the title with a draw. But the outcome would be decided in classical chess.

Naturally, it is of special interest to know what our readers — and chess experts around the world — think of this proposal. Please use our feedback section below to express your views.

Links




Editor-in-Chief emeritus of the ChessBase News page. Studied Philosophy and Linguistics at the University of Hamburg and Oxford, graduating with a thesis on speech act theory and moral language. He started a university career but switched to science journalism, producing documentaries for German TV. In 1986 he co-founded ChessBase.
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Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/28/2018 11:12
@ Jacob woge :

"And I did not even mention World-Wide Hide and Seek."

Quite a serious omission, without any doubt !!
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/28/2018 10:26
@ Jacob woge :

About your two last comments, I find this quite interesting, but, without been very knowledgeable about the examples that you gave, I am under the impression that even if, theoretically, they are unlimited (which is still an interesting fact), in practice, they aren't so at all. And, in particular, it would be more or less impossible for them to be unlimited in terms of DAYS - in chess the "unlimited side" of "draws non counting" matches is a matter of days (and possibly a great number of days), and not of hours...
Jacob woge Jacob woge 9/27/2018 04:58
@lajosarpad

Not obvious perhaps, but i tried to comment on this statement:

"Personally, I cannot find one single example of a competitive system (in sports, etc.) that can allow a potentially unlimited competition"


I could think of a few. And I did not even mention World-Wide Hide and Seek.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/27/2018 02:46
@Petrarlsen

in fact I suggested chess960 (with classical time control) as a possible tiebreak, as a superior option in comparison to rapid and blitz. I explained that I consider chess960 with classical time control to be a better tiebreak than rapid or blitz, because in the case the tiebreak is being played with chess960 with classical time control, there is a chance of 1/960 that they will actually play chess. Nonetheless, if there is a tiebreak to be played, then in my opinion it should be played in classical chess. However, I prefer avoiding tiebreaks. In my view, ties are not representing a problem in chess, so they do not need to be broken. The match should be long-enough, maybe of 24 games, so, if the champion has draw odds, it would not have as big an effect on the result as in the case of a match which consists of 12 games.

I was happily showing your real argument, for me it is normal to answer to the real arguments of all the participants of a debate, regardless of whether I agree with them. With yours I happened to agree, but I would have made sure it is correctly presented even if I was not in agreement. It is sad that people are using logical fallacies and after a while start to be mean. I see these as signs of weakness in character and believe me, in other kinds of debates this is much more common, at least, according to my experience than here, in chess.

@Jacob Woge

What works for soccer or tennis not necessarily is working for chess. At chess the match is played between two guys who spent months preparing the same variations and the fight is mental, which highly modifies the effects of tiredness.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/25/2018 11:49
@ lajosarpad : In fact, I haven't anything to answer about your two last posts, because, this time, I simply agree with everything in them ! But big thanks for having found the passage of one of my posts in which I supposedly said that the "draw odds to the Champion" doesn't give an advantage to him ; I really wondered how I could have said anything like this... and the (reassuring) answer was that, in fact, I DIDN'T say such a thing !
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/25/2018 10:58
@ fgkdjlkag :

I just read lajosarpad's last posts ; his very last post (for the moment) allowed me to understand what you meant in this paragraph :

"@Petrarlsen, you say that draw odds to the champion is not an advantage. But you later contradict yourself by saying: "this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match." So you agree that it is an advantage."

So, obviously, by this comment, you alluded to this passage of one of my own previous posts :

"I know that you will not agree, but, for me, the fact that the Champion would keep his title in case of a drawn match isn't "giving an advantage to one player" ; this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match."

Taking together these two passages, your and mine, rather seems to question your reading abilities : that you cannot understand, when reading a simple sentence, the difference between an advantage "given" to someone ("given" meaning necessarily that the source of this advantage was exterior to this person) and an advantage "earned" by this same person is more than surprising. And when you add that you didn't understand either that if someone has "earned" an advantage, it necessarily implies that this person DOES have this advantage (...if you "earn" something, you necessarily have it afterwards - unless you lose it later, obviously... -, or else you wouldn't have "earned" it...), the situation is becoming more and more surprising indeed...

Seeing your last posts, I am beginning to think that you are rather right (...probably the only point on which we would agree...) when you said : "The logic in the past few posts has been atrocious. I will respond to them, but will not continue in this discussion at this level of reasoning." And, indeed, I am rather under the impression that, if you would quit this discussion (as it is the solution you proposed to solve this grave problem), the logic in the posts on this page would probably cease to be "atrocious". But I am still wondering about a small point : as, obviously, the posts featuring an "atrocious" logic are your own posts, why haven't you answered your own posts ? Indeed, you said : "I will respond to them", but you didn't answer to those of your posts with such an "atrocious" level of logic... curious thing...
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/25/2018 10:23
@ lajosarpad : Strangely, I think that, at the moment I wrote my two last posts to fgkdjlkag, your own last posts didn't appear on this page ; I will now read them, and answer them.
Jacob woge Jacob woge 9/25/2018 08:52
Penalty shoot-out is potentially unlimited - but has shown to be very limited in practice. Tennis tie-break likewise - in principle every set is unlimited, advantage changing side at every turn. Badminton had the same issue, but rules have changed. Far as I know.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/25/2018 06:49
@ fgkdjlkag (2/2) :

- "I clearly stated that there is a problem if the classical chess world championship cannot be decided within a reasonable time frame. 50 wins does not fall into the category of reasonableness."

As you would say, I think that your logic is rather atrocious if you consider that the measure for the time frame of a World Championship match is a number of wins.

And this is precisely the problem : when using a system which doesn't take into account drawn games, there isn't any time frame. A time frame must include ALL games from the match. Personally, I cannot find one single example of a competitive system (in sports, etc.) that can allow a potentially unlimited competition, and it is just simple logic : a system which doesn't decide in advance some sort of a time frame just BEGS for something in the line of the 1984 Karpov - Kasparov match...

- "@Petrarlsen, you say that draw odds to the champion is not an advantage. But you later contradict yourself by saying: "this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match." So you agree that it is an advantage."

I don't remember where I am supposed to have said that the "draw odds to the Champion" rule isn't an advantage ; perhaps I didn't expressed well what I meant. It is obvious that the "draw odds to the Champion" rule is an advantage to the Champion, but if you mean that an advantage is always a bad thing, it is just completely surreal, in my opinion...

If one player has more match experience than the other, it is an advantage (and it doesn't necessarily is an advantage for the Champion : in their second match, Anand, as Challenger, had more match experience that Carlsen, as the Champion), if one player wins the first two games of the match, he has a clear advantage for the rest of the match, if one of the two participants had very bad results against the other in the last months preceding the match, he has (very probably...) a psychological advantage... What's wrong with having an advantage ? The question is to know if an advantage is a "good" advantage, and, one more time, I think that, lajosarpad and I, we explained sufficiently our viewpoints on the question of the "draw odds to the Champion" rule for it to be clear that we consider this as a "good advantage". With this rule, the onus is on the Challenger to demonstrate that he can beat the Champion ; if he cannot demonstrate this, then the Champion keeps his title ; quite simple ; it worked for decades and decades... I don't see any problem with this...
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/25/2018 06:48
@ fgkdjlkag (1/2) :

- "Comparing the Champion's showdown to other blitz/rapid events cannot be done because the sample size is too small."

In the Champion's showdown, there were 100 games, with 10 different top-players. What would you want ? 1,000 games ? 10.000 games ? A sample of 100 games seems to me to be more than enough to determine that, for the moment, our working hypothesis must be that Chess960 doesn't change significantly the wins / draws ratio. It would not be sufficient to draw final conclusions, but sufficient to consider that the working hypothesis is that Chess960 isn't useful to diminish the draw rate.

- "The logic in the past few posts has been atrocious. I will respond to them, but will not continue in this discussion at this level of reasoning."

Indeed, your logic seems to be atrocious when you insist to disregard completely the statistical elements that show that Chess960 must in all probability not be useful to diminish the draw rate in chess...

- About the "draw rate to the Champion" rule, I think that lajosarpad and I already sufficiently explain our opinions on this, and that our arguments still completely hold, even in view of your last explanations, so I don't think I have to add anything to what we have already exposed here.

- "I never suggested that chess960 should be used as a tiebreak for a classical chess world championship"

Nobody said that YOU suggested this, but, nonetheless, this idea has been discussed on this page. As it is clear from my comments, I am opposed to this idea of using Chess960 as a tiebreaker for the World Championship.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/25/2018 05:24
@fgkdjlkag

"I know that you will not agree, but, for me, the fact that the Champion would keep his title in case of a drawn match isn't "giving an advantage to one player" ; this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match. "

Petrarlsen was stating that champion having draw odds is not giving advantage for him. In fact he earned the advantage by previously proving he is the best. Not agreeing that a hard earned advantage was "given" to one is not equal to claiming that the given advantage is not an advantage. I do not think that any reasonable argument would hold that the draw odds is not an advantage. It is obviously advantage, but was not given as a present. The person earned it, so it is fair. The quote from you above is therefore a strawman argument.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/25/2018 05:23
@Petrarlsen

Globally we agree indeed, the difference in our opinions comes from the details of the question, which is not surprising at all. Celeje is a proponent of chess960, but as a different game, as he clearly explained, so I do not really have essential problems with his approach, even though I assume that I would disagree with him in many things, but that's not a problem either.

@fgkdjlkag

thank you for being concerned about the level of my arguments.

The world champion has proven he is the best, so that is the null hypothesis until someone proves that he is better. The assumption that a given person might be better is an alternative hypothesis. To let him prove that he is the best and modify the null hypothesis for the future is the challenger's task. The world champion being the best player is an established fact at the moment of winning the game and over time it transforms into a null hypothesis, so development in the world is not ignored at all.

Read more about the null hypothesis here: http://www.statisticshowto.com/probability-and-statistics/null-hypothesis/

It is a short article and is easy to understand, the mathematical symbols are kept at a very simple level, to assure the understandability to people outside the realm of scientific research as well.

Again, I am happy you are concerned about my level, but speaking of levels, I find it strange that you quote from me in your answer to Petrarlsen. I will not quit the discussion because of this mistake, accidents happen. I also found it strange that you were not aware of the number of tied matches in the history of chess, but I would not be so arrogant to start to speak about your level and to use it as an excuse to quit the discussion.

"I disproved the exact claim that you made, that a draw odds to the champion is fair."

Can you give us the quote where you have successfully disproven this? I have seen some attempts, but I probably missed the point where you have successfully disproven this. When a system to determine who the world champion is provides an infinite match, then the system has a problem. You might have a problem with chess, but I hope no one forces you to play the game. I like the game. I like draws and I like tied matches. So, for me there is no problem in chess.

I have explained to you using the null hypothesis why such a match (with a reliable qualification for the challenger) is able to guarantee that the best player is the champion. If nobody is able to beat him, then he is the best. Maybe others are as good as him, but not better. Until someone beats him.

"But "the system" is a misconstruction of the argument."

Nope. The system which determines who the best is is an important factor and we should be allowed to talk about it without accusations of misconstructing the argument.

"NEITHER PLAYER has demonstrated to be the best in the world at that time. "

The null hypothesis has to be disproved, not proved. The world champion is already the world champion, he has nothing to prove. It is the challenger who challenges the claim of the world champion of being the best.

The difference between 5% and 80% is meaningful. But do we know that such a difference exist in our case?

"you say that draw odds to the champion is not an advantage. But you later contradict yourself by saying: "this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match." So you agree that it is an advantage."

This is the quote you are talking about:
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 9/25/2018 08:19
@Petrarlsen, you say that draw odds to the champion is not an advantage. But you later contradict yourself by saying: "this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match." So you agree that it is an advantage.
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 9/25/2018 08:19
@Bruce Harper, I understood the way the system worked, but was confused by the scoring system; was thrown off by the peculiar point that points are awarded for the first drawn game, but no points are awarded for each subsequent drawn game until a decisive result occurs. Very, very interesting idea.

The logic in the past few posts has been atrocious. I will respond to them, but will not continue in this discussion at this level of reasoning.

I never suggested that chess960 should be used as a tiebreak for a classical chess world championship; it is a terrible idea. The proposal was to replace classical chess with something else, such as chess960, Bruce Harper's proposal, or one of a plethora of other systems, one of the criteria (among many others) being to dramatically lower the chance of a tied match.

@lajosarpad, that reasoning is just wrong. The world champion demonstrated being the best in the world at the time of the world championship (with a certain probability, depending upon the conditions of the match, etc). It is NOT the assumption that the world champion is the best in the world at the time of the NEXT match. Not only because of a change in strength of the world champion, but much more significant is the development of other players.

@Petrarlsen, regarding your comment of "first to 50 wins", I clearly stated that there is a problem if the classical chess world championship cannot be decided within a reasonable time frame. 50 wins does not fall into the category of reasonableness.

"In the Kasparov-Karpov 1984 match the games were very interesting in my opinion, so I do not see a problem with the game there. The fact that the match was not decided in five months means there is a problem indeed, but it is a problem with the system."

There is nothing wrong with interesting games and I never suggested it. But "the system" is a misconstruction of the argument. The point is that "classical chess" has to be included as part of "the system". Incorporating blitz/rapid events changes "the system" to use your parlance, so classical vs. blitz/rapid must be part of the discussion, to distinguish the system including only number of wins, draw odds, etc.

Comparing the Champion's showdown to other blitz/rapid events cannot be done because the sample size is too small.

@Petrarlsen, you have not understood my Botvinnik/Alekhine example. Please review it again. It has nothing to do with a world champion's strength changing over time. It was a mathematical argument that I had hoped an example would elucidate. I disproved the exact claim that you made, that a draw odds to the champion is fair. To explain it in a different way: if there is a decisive outcome in a world championship match without draw odds rule or any other favorable treatment to one side (extra white, first to a win, etc), then one player has proven to be the best in the world. Take another world championship match (obviously done at a different time, otherwise it would be the same match. the players may be the same or different) in which the conditions are the same and the outcome is a tie. NEITHER PLAYER has demonstrated to be the best in the world at that time.

""Yes, chess960 would be expected to reduce the frequency of draws, which would make it more likely to have an undisputed world champion after a match (instead of it being drawn)."

So you acknowledge there is no guarantee. "

Of course there is no guarantee, it goes without saying in any system. Look at @Bruce Harper's comment below. If one system has a 5% probability of a drawn match and another has a 80% probability of a drawn match, isn't that meaningful? Whether one chooses to implement a system with a 80%, 5%, or 0% probability is a decision for someone/ a committee to make, but it is obvious that there are substantive differences.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/25/2018 02:20
@ dumkof :

- "A scoring system in a match has no effect, since there are only 2 players (...)".

It cannot have an effect on the Wins / Draws ratio, but, in the form of the system explained by lajosarpad, that I developed in later posts under this same article (even if, by the way, neither lajosarpad nor I are particularly favorable to this system), a greater number of points for a win combined with a given score in number of points for the gain of the Title can be some sort of a "mitigated version" of the "draws non counting" system "à la Karpov - Kasparov 1984" (for example) - the number of games would be greater if many draws are played, and lower if wins are numerous, but this system would avoid the risk of an unlimited match.

But I rather suppose that you didn't include this very specific system, when you said : "A scoring system in a match has no effect".
dumkof dumkof 9/25/2018 12:34
A scoring system in a match has no effect, since there are only 2 players, whose draws are always the same. The only distinguishing thing is the number of wins, and it doesn't matter which numeric value a win has. Those who suggest a 3-1-0 system (or other arbitrary moronic systems) in a match, should be thrown out of this forum and imprisoned, for the sake of this match and the future of chess.
Bruce Harper Bruce Harper 9/25/2018 12:18
fgkdjlkag wrote:

"I am not sure I understand @Bruce Harper's suggestion regarding 1/3, 2/3 points - it sounds to me that players are playing for the first decisive result, and the score for that day will be 1-0 or 0-1, no limit on the number of games? So the 1/3, 2/3 points is not relevant? Very interesting suggestion, would love to see a tournament with that format. It would have the effect of fundamentally change the nature of chess by making time management become much more important."

I am sure that fgkdjlkag *didn't* understand what I proposed, even though it is simple enough.

1. A normal classic game is played. If one player wins, that players gets 1 point and the loser gets 0 points.

2. If the classic (first) game is drawn, each player gets 1/3 of a point. That leaves the remaining 1/3 of a point up for grabs.

3. The two players then switch colors and play a second game. Each player gets whatever time they didn't use in the first game. If that game is decisive, the winner gets the remaining 1/3 of a point.

4. If the second game is also drawn, the players switch colors again and play a third game, using whatever time they have left. The winner gets the remaining 1/3 of a point.

5. This continues until there is a decisive result in one of the tie break games.

This is why there are only four possible results: 1-0, 2/3-1/3, 1/3-2/3 and 0-1. The current 1/2-1/2 result could not occur, because eventually one of the (faster and faster) tie breaks games would be decisive.

Would this prevent a tie in a World Championship match after 24 games? No - it would just make it very unlikely. Would it prevent a tie if a 25th game was played? Yes.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/24/2018 04:26
@ jsaldea12 : As I completely agree with lajosarpad's last post to you, I will simply join his question to you : "I would like to know the exact way you would like such a match to be played and a detailed explanation of how the 3-1-0 scoring system would be an improvement in the system you propose."

This is mathematical, and not at all something linked with impressions when playing a game with one system or another !
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/24/2018 04:25
@ lajosarpad :

- About the system I proposed for the World Championship, our positions are not very different, in my opinion. I find this system acceptable, as I would find the immediate use of the "draw odds to the Champion" rule acceptable, and certainly a good number of other possible systems ; you seem also to find the two acceptable, but you prefer quite clearly the direct use of the "draw odds to the Champion" rule. I don't think this is a very important difference... For me, if a system is globally logical and coherent, and if it only uses classical time controls, it is sufficient ! But I can quite well understand that you would have higher expectations !

- "I would add that it was a problem with the system, not with the game itself, but I totally agree." (about the Karpov - Kasparov 1984 match)

In fact, I already said something to this effect !

This is what I said (to fgkdjlkag) : "(...) if you had a World Championship with the rule "First to win 50 games", it would take years to finish, and it would just be completely normal. This was not the case, but, in my opinion, a potentialy unlimited competition is just something you can't do, be it in chess or elsewhere, and this is the real source of this problem."

- "I think nobody would disagree to have some chess960 tournaments, but I do not understand why some people want to kill chess."

I quite agree. By the way, I remember that celeje also quite agree with our opinion on this point - he is clearly a strong proponent of Chess960, but not to replace traditional chess : alongside it.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/24/2018 03:38
@jsaldea12

If we introduce the 3-1-0 scoring system in a match between two players and the match is played between A and B, then, if A beats B, he gets 3 points. If B beats A, he gets 3 points as well. That would be a score of 3-3. If they draw all their games, they will have the exact same point, so the 3-1-0 scoring system by itself would not provide extra motivation to take risks. If you have a fixed score to achieve, then it would make a difference in the number of games, but not in the incentive to fight. So, I would like to know the exact way you would like such a match to be played and a detailed explanation of how the 3-1-0 scoring system would be an improvement in the system you propose. Thanks.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/24/2018 03:33
@fgkdjlkag

Even tied soccer matches could be decided by rapid or blitz chess tiebreaks if FIFA would maje such a decision. Would that mean there is a problem with soccer? No. So this is not a valid argument. If we need rapid or blitz to decide who the best chess player is, then there is a problem with chess indeed, but there is no proof we need rapid or blitz tiebreaks. Champion retains title was a commonly accepted standard before rapid and blitz tiebreaks were introduced. It was a political decision, not a scientific consequence of the game to introduce rapid and blitz tiebreaks. Giving draw odds to one of the players does not prevent draws at all. It just handles the ties gracefully if the situation arises, while a win achieved due to the tiredness of the opponent in a very long match or a blunder in a blitz tiebreak is not convincing at all.

"It was not an isolated problem, it was mentioned here that it has occurred 3 times already. "

It happened in:

Lasker-Schlechter (1910)
Botvinnik-Bronstein (1951)
Botvinnik-Smyslov (1954)
Kasparov-Karpov (1987)
Kasimdzhanov-Adams (2004)
Kramnik-Lékó (2004)
Kramnik-Topalov (2006)
Anand-Gelfand (2012)
Carlsen-Karjakin (2016)

It happened 9 times. Is this a problem? I disagree. The matches were interesting.

"Yes, chess960 would be expected to reduce the frequency of draws, which would make it more likely to have an undisputed world champion after a match (instead of it being drawn)."

So you acknowledge there is no guarantee. Anyway, the way people would prepare would be changed, evolved into something different, possibly more efficient. I can certainly imagine some optimizations in the preparation.

@Petrarlsen

You have a good point when you say that Kasparov-Karpov 1984 was an isolated problem. I would add that it was a problem with the system, not with the game itself, but I totally agree.

Also, I would like to point out that the cause of the debate, in my opinion is that the idea presented by some people is to replace chess with chess960. I think nobody would disagree to have some chess960 tournaments, but I do not understand why some people want to kill chess. Chess960 could thrive as a separate sport if it was popular. I have no problem with chess960 thriving, if it is not at the expense of chess.
jsaldea12 jsaldea12 9/24/2018 03:27
Response to Petralsen statement: "You are certainly not overtiring yourself by answering to objections ; everyone says to you that what you say is absurd (in particular, mathematically absurd...), and you simply continue to repeat over and over the exact same nonsense ! You could at least TRY to refute the objections, but no ! You prefer to continue to state that 2 + 2 = 5 and that the white cat is in fact a black dog !... (Or perhaps a pink elephant ?!? Who knows ?...)". You have not understood. THE BEST ARGUMENT IS ACTUAL PLAY WITH THE PROPOSED RATIO 3 POINTS FOR WIN AND 1 POINT FOR DRAW AND TELL ME.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/24/2018 03:09
@Petrarlsen

I have taken into account the possibility (or even the probability) that the players would play differently. In the quote you have given, I even added that

"[...] assuming your proposed system would have been introduced before the match"

with which I intended to let you know that I am aware that assuming they were playing in a different situation, the example I am giving would not necessarily came to existence. I deliberately ignored this for the sake of simplicity and avoidance of baseless speculations from my part. The importance of the example is that we cannot exclude the possibility that the first win is achieved by using the blunder of the opponent and in the case of Anand-Gelfand the legitimacy of the title given to Gelfand would not have been very high looking at the match. He was a very good challenger, of course, but he did not manage to convince me he was better than Anand in that match. This problem could arise in your system even if they play differently. They might be very eager to be first to win, but they might bury themselves behind the Berlin wall as well, depending on their match strategy. I agree with you that they would play differently, but I think none of us can determine how they would play, due to the volatility of the situation and the personality of the players.

@fgkdjlkag

No offence, but I think your reasoning is flawed, if we take a look at the example you have given. In the example Botvinnik has already proven he is the best in the world and it is safe to assume that he is the best unless someone proves that this is no longer the case. In science the null hypothesis is the hypothesis which is scientifically correct if one has to assume something. When a match is tied, we have to assume something. We can assume that the champion is better. Or we can assume that the challenger is better. Or we can assume that a tiebreak would determine who is better. Since the world championt has already proven he or she is the best, the null hypothesis is that he or she is the best and the challenger has to prove he or she is better than the champion, hence the reason of the draw odds. One may want to have a tiebreak, but if the tiebreak is not classical chess, or not even chess, then I consider it less than satisfactory. If it is rapid or blitz, then we are deciding who is the best by making the players rush their decisions. This is not significantly better than a coin toss. If it is chess960, then 959 of the positions is not even chess. I see logic in having classical chess games as tiebreak, but if we want to break the tie, we will run either into the problem of infinity, if the match is undecided, see Kasparov-Karpov 1984, or into random draw odds, as in sudden death. Yes, it is more convincing for a champion to actually win the match than if he or she tied it, but the null hypothesis is not the champion's side. It is the challenger, who challenges the champion and the champion, who is challenged by the challenger, not vice versa.

"There is something wrong with classical chess when a world champion cannot be decided in 5 months, no matter how you look at it."

In the Kasparov-Karpov 1984 match the games were very interesting in my opinion, so I do not see a problem with the game there. The fact that the match was not decided in five months means there is a problem indeed, but it is a problem with the system. If you introduce the very same system with chess960 you cannot exclude reaching the same situation. Excluding the theoretical possibility of an infinite match is a very important responsivity of the system and it was ommitted in 1984. Again, I have absolutely no problem with tied matches. They are unacceptable for you, as it seems, so we will not reach an agreement about this.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/24/2018 02:50
@ fgkdjlkag (2/2) :

- "You do not seem to know much about chess960" ; "(...) you grossly overestimate the players ability to reach a drawn position."

As you obviously very strongly disagree with my opinion, and as, quite obviously too, you were not convinced at all by my arguments, I wondered if it would be possible to make a comparison between Chess960 and traditional chess, as for the draw rates, to have more "solid" arguments (in one way or the other).

My answer to this is to take, on the one side, the draw percentage of the Champions Showdown and, on the other side, the respective draw percentages in the Saint Louis Rapid & Blitz tournament in Rapid and in Blitz. The two competitions were played in the same period ; the player weren't the same, but their levels were rather similar, and the number of games quite important in one and the other event.

In the Champions Showdown, the draw percentage was 42 % (cf. https://en.chessbase.com/post/champions-showdown-improving-the-format).

In the Saint Louis Rapid & Blitz tournament, in Blitz, the draw percentage was 41 % (https://en.chessbase.com/post/saint-louis-rapid-and-blitz-day-5-2018) ; in Rapid, it was 53 % (https://en.chessbase.com/post/saint-louis-rapid-blitz-day-3). Calculating with the Blitz / Rapid ratio of the Champions Showdown (70 blitz games and 30 rapid games), this would give a 45 % draw percentage.

So, on the one hand, we have a draw rate of 42 % at the Champions Showdown ; on the other hand, calculated with the percentages of the Saint Louis Rapid & Blitz tournament, a similar competition to the Champions Showdown but in traditional chess would give a 45 % draw rate.

In my opinion, a difference of 3 % between the draw rate in Chess960 and traditional chess is more or less negligible, so I think that our working hypothesis seems in fact to be that to use Chess960 in lieu of traditional chess more or less doesn't change anything in terms of draw rate. My impression is that you didn't fully take into account the difference in defensive level between an amateur (even a very good amateur - for example a 2200 player) and a 2700+ GM : these players really KNOW how to force a draw, and, even in Chess960, they don't lose much more frequently than in traditional chess...

- "I never compared chess960 stakes to classical chess, I was responding to your statement that there has been "nothing at stake" in chess960."

I didn't say that there was "nothing at stake", but "nothing significant at stake". It was certainly slightly exaggerated, but I think that my own point stand, which was to say that, as, on the one hand, there are nearly no data about Chess960 at top-level with classical time controls, and, on the other hand, the stakes in a Classical World Championship tiebreak are incommensurably higher than in any previous Chess960 competition, it is very difficult to have a real idea of what could be a World Championship tiebreak played with Chess960 games, and with a classical time control, as the players would certainly play very differently from what we have seen in other Chess960 competitions. As, furthermore, the draw rate difference between Chess960 and traditional chess doesn't seem to be really significant, I don't think that to use Chess960 as a tiebreak for the Classical World Championship would be at all a good idea...
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/24/2018 02:50
@ fgkdjlkag (1/2) :

- About your (fictious) example with Botvinnik and Alekhine, I think it isn't quite relevant, because, at this time, there was no World Championship cycle, this having for a consequence that there could be a quite long period between two consecutive matches, with the Champion losing much of his initial level between the two matches. Nowodays, with the present system's very short cycles, the level of the Champion shouldn't change much between one match and the following one (or else, we could question everything, including the potential change in level for the Challenger between the Candidates and the following match). But if you change your example, and assume that Botvinnik would have beaten a World Champion who would have become World Champion 2 or 3 years before, I would find this completely satisfying : in the Botvinnik - Bronstein match, they were equal, but Botvinnik would have proved more by beating the previous Champion, so I would find completely logical for him to win the Title in such a way.

- "(...) that was a mistype, it was supposed to be not "as much of an accomplishment as" (...)"

I didn't succeed in finding your original sentence ; could you point it to me ?

- "There is something wrong with classical chess when a world champion cannot be decided in 5 months, no matter how you look at it."

You cannot say this like this. For example, if you had a World Championship with the rule "First to win 50 games", it would take years to finish, and it would just be completely normal. This was not the case, but, in my opinion, a potentialy unlimited competition is just something you can't do, be it in chess or elsewhere, and this is the real source of this problem.

- "As above, the point is not that chess is dead, the point is that a sufficiently long classical chess match cannot determine a sole winner without introducing non-classical elements or giving an advantage to one player."

I know that you will not agree, but, for me, the fact that the Champion would keep his title in case of a drawn match isn't "giving an advantage to one player" ; this advantage, he earned it by winning the previous match.

- "It was not an isolated problem" (about the 1984 match).

For you, it isn't an isolated problem, because you don't accept the "draw odds to the Champion" rule ; for me (and for most commentators - as you certainly have seen by yourself, the "draw odds to the Champion" rule is very popular between the ChessBase commentators), as I consider the "draw odds to the Champion" rule to be quite satisfying, I DO consider that this was an isolated problem ; no other match was left unfinished like the 1984 match...
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 9/23/2018 08:52
"If you introduce chess960, would it make drawn matches impossible? I doubt it."
"If chess960 would be introduced, then its theory would be developed as well. Supercomputers can analyze chess960 as well, nothing will prevent GMs from memorizing ideas. Yes, memorizing opening lines for 960 starting positions might be beyond the capabilities of the human brain, but if that's not possible, they will memorize patterns and ideas. "

Yes, chess960 would be expected to reduce the frequency of draws, which would make it more likely to have an undisputed world champion after a match (instead of it being drawn). It would not make drawn matches impossible. Memorizing opening lines of 960 positions to the extent as in classical chess, which is 1 position in 960, is absolutely impossible for a human. It does not matter that computers can do it. Topalov made this comment recently. And it is not so easy to memorize patterns and ideas. Kasparov himself just said recently that switching the position of 2 pieces that are next to each other in the starting setup changes everything. All the patterns. There is nothing that relates. He said it stronger than I am explaining it here.

@Petrarlsen, I never compared chess960 stakes to classical chess, I was responding to your statement that there has been "nothing at stake" in chess960. My point about draw frequency is not based on results of previous tournaments, but theoretical.

"
- "(...) in chess960 it is impossible to "kill as quickly as possible any tactical possibilities, and going as fast as possible in the direction of a drawn position""

All these are pure surmises ; you could be wrong or I could be wrong... But my opinion is that, at this extremely high level, if BOTH players are trying to "kill as quickly as possible any tactical possibilities", they will succeed in obtaining this. I agree that it would be MUCH more difficult if only ONE player was trying to get these types of positions, but if they tacitly agree on this, I don't really see a win coming for either of them...
"
You do not seem to know much about chess960. Of course if both players want a draw in classical standard chess they can agree to it after 1 move, if it is not prohibited. This is not different to chess960. But you grossly overestimate the players ability to reach a drawn position. I'm guessing you did not watch the Nakamura-Carlsen match or the champion's showdown 2018 st. louis? Look at how unbalanced the positions were. The players had to solve serious opening problems right from move 1.
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 9/23/2018 08:50
@lajosarpad

Maybe I did not explain sufficiently. Take an example. Let's say that Botvinnik defeated Alekhine to become world champion and that Botvinnik ,the challenger, was the stronger player at the time of the match. Next Bronstein qualified and played Botvinnik to a tie in a 24-game match. My point is that it is unfair that Bronstein did not become world champion when he is at least as good as Botvinnik. One cannot say that it is fair because Botvinnik had to beat Alekhine, because Botvinnik was stronger than Alekhine at the time (as an example), and Bronstein is equal to Botvinnik. Bronstein was unlucky to be born when he was so that when he contested the world title, the world champion was equal to him in strength. So the world championship should be designed so that the best player wins, no advantage to either side (as in draw odds to the champion).

@Petrarlsen, that was a mistype, it was supposed to be not "as much of an accomplishment as", the same as the example I gave above. Requiring the challenger to play better than the champion is not fair due to the historical time period point.

"Why drawn matches indicate that there are problems with chess? What is the problem with the game?"

"Your proposal is not guaranteed to work, see Kasparov-Karpov 1984. I do not say that now is more needed to have a limit than before, but we need a limit. Having the players to play the match for half a year is beyond the reasonable purposes of a match. And that's what happened in Karpov-Kasparov 1984."

You just answered your own question. There is something wrong with classical chess when a world champion cannot be decided in 5 months, no matter how you look at it. If you have blitz or rapid tiebreaks, then it shows there is something wrong with classical chess, because blitz and rapid are not classical. Giving one player an advantage (draw odds to the world champion), is only to prevent a drawn match, there is no other logic to it. I think this point is clear.

"I don't think that this is as simple as that. The 1984 Karpov - Kasparov match lasted for more than 5 months (and this seems to me to be MUCH to long), and, nowadays, more than a third of a century after, chess is still alive and kicking ! So it is possible to have an isolated problem for a given match, without this meaning that "Chess is Dead" ! And I think nonetheless that some precautions should be taken to avoid problems in the line of this 1984 match."

As above, the point is not that chess is dead, the point is that a sufficiently long classical chess match cannot determine a sole winner without introducing non-classical elements or giving an advantage to one player. It was not an isolated problem, it was mentioned here that it has occurred 3 times already.
Jacob woge Jacob woge 9/23/2018 08:24
“I have no problem at all with a tied match and I fail to understand what is the problem we intend to solve with a tiebreaks. “

Tiebreak was introduced in the Kramnik-Topalov “unification” match, because there was no challenger, but two world champions. Or at least, both regarded himself as such.

It has stayed with us since, for reasons unknown to me. I find it unnecessary and out of place to mix formats (including random chess) and would much prefer a longer match.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/23/2018 05:16
@ lajosarpad :

"I think the approach of giving the match win in case of a tie to the winner of the first game as a tiebreak as you have also stated, but that tiebreak is not necessarily just or logical. If we look at the Anand-Gelfand match, for example, Gelfand won the 7th game due to Anand's mistake and Gelfand's alertness, but then in the 8th game Anand came back with a miniature. Would it be logical or fair to give Gelfand the title in that case, of course, assuming your proposed system would have been introduced before the match?"

What you don't seem to be taking into account is that, in my opinion, the players would play differently (and perhaps QUITE differently). To be the first to win would become a separate objective, and I don't think that the Anand - Gelfand and the Carlsen - Karjakin matches would have been the same, with this system (more still because, with the "draw odds to the Champion" rule, a match without any win wouldn't be undecided : it would mean a match victory for the previous Champion, so the players - or at least the Challenger - couldn't simply play draw after draw waiting for a rapid or blitz tiebreak, because there wouldn't be one !).
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/23/2018 05:01
@ fgkdjlkag (2/2) :

3) About Chess960 :

- "It is not correct that there has been nothing at stake for chess960, there were several world championships, there was the high stakes nakamura-Carlsen match, and the recent champion's showdown st. louis had a prize fund of $50,000 for EACH match."

Yes, but, a) the stakes can perhaps be compared to what represents a "normal" chess tournament (Tata Steel, Sinquefield Cup, etc.), but a Classical World Championship is quite on another level altogether, and b) if I remember well, each of these competitions were Rapid of Blitz competitions, and the draw percentages are always much lower in Rapid or Blitz than in classical chess. So, in my opinion, it is impossible to draw conclusions with these elements as to what could be a classical time control Chess960 tiebreak for the Classical World Championship.

- "(...) in chess960 it is impossible to "kill as quickly as possible any tactical possibilities, and going as fast as possible in the direction of a drawn position""

All these are pure surmises ; you could be wrong or I could be wrong... But my opinion is that, at this extremely high level, if BOTH players are trying to "kill as quickly as possible any tactical possibilities", they will succeed in obtaining this. I agree that it would be MUCH more difficult if only ONE player was trying to get these types of positions, but if they tacitly agree on this, I don't really see a win coming for either of them...

4) "Let's also be clear on one point. The fact that three 24-game matches were tied in the past, and that all this discussion is taking place, does not mean that there is something wrong with the system, or with the players, but indicates a problem with chess itself! So if a long match cannot produce a winner, something fundamental has to be changed; replace chess with FischerRandom, Harper's proposal, or something else."

I don't think that this is as simple as that. The 1984 Karpov - Kasparov match lasted for more than 5 months (and this seems to me to be MUCH to long), and, nowadays, more than a third of a century after, chess is still alive and kicking ! So it is possible to have an isolated problem for a given match, without this meaning that "Chess is Dead" ! And I think nonetheless that some precautions should be taken to avoid problems in the line of this 1984 match.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/23/2018 04:57
@ fgkdjlkag (1/2) :

1) I think that a completely unlimited match is a problem (cf. the more than 5 months long Karpov - Kasparov 1984 match) ; in my opinion, there must be some sort of a limit somewhere (perhaps something in the line of lajosarpad's system - which he didn't like much, by the way ! -, implementing two elements : a) a different scoring system ; b) a number of points to obtain to become the Champion : for example, if we would have 10 points for a win and 1 point for a draw with the title given to the first player who would obtain 40 points, with 3 wins and 10 draws - 13 games... -, the title could be awarded, but, even without any win, the match would end with the 40th game - in my opinion, by applying the "draw odds to the Champion" rule... -, which would still not be far from a 2 months match). I also think that this would be financially very difficult to organize, but, for this, the simplest thing is to try to organize it, and see if it works... And, when you say : "A long match would create tremendous excitement", I don't think that the excitement would continue if the match would not end after one or two months...

2) "(...) it does not mean much for the challenger to defeat the world champion (...)" In my opinion, it ALWAYS mean much, to defeat the World Champion : if the system is satisfying, to beat the World Champion means more or less to beat the best player in the World in a match, and I don't see how to beat the best player in the World can be considered as something not-so-significant ! There are thousands and thousands of IMs and GMs in the world, and to beat the best of them all in a match is ALWAYS a tremendous accomplishment, in my opinion... And if the Challenger's Elo rating is very close to the Champion's rating, it simply mean that the Challenger managed permanently to bring his playing level to a very high level... which is another very significant accomplishment by itself !!
lajosarpad lajosarpad 9/23/2018 04:11
@BKnight2003

It is simple indeed, but we still have tiebreaks. I have no problem at all with a tied match and I fail to understand what is the problem we intend to solve with a tiebreaks. But, as I described earlier, if we have to decide ties with tiebreaks, then it should be played with classical time controls. So I do not quite agree with you, but I think your proposal is better than the current system.

@Petrarlsen

I agree with you that the possibility of implementing a 3-1-0 scoring system with a score to be achieved by the winner is not optimal, but would be better than a match with a number of wins needed to win the match, due to the fact that we see the end of the match. I think random chess960 positions are so unkown that players probably lack the knowledge to be able to play in a safety-first measure. However, without relevant amount of data I cannot back my opinion with facts. I understand your point about your system, but I do not quite agree. I think the approach of giving the match win in case of a tie to the winner of the first game as a tiebreak as you have also stated, but that tiebreak is not necessarily just or logical. If we look at the Anand-Gelfand match, for example, Gelfand won the 7th game due to Anand's mistake and Gelfand's alertness, but then in the 8th game Anand came back with a miniature. Would it be logical or fair to give Gelfand the title in that case, of course, assuming your proposed system would have been introduced before the match?

"About the idea of giving an extra-white to the Challenger as a compensation for the "Champion keeps title" rule, I would think it would be better to let the Challenger chose if he prefers to have an extra-white or an extra-black game. This would then be HIS choice, and no one else would be responsible for it ! "

I think you are right here.

@fgkdjlkag

I understand your point now. Yes, the difference in strength between the world champion and challenger varies over time. Sometimes the challenger is stronger than the world champion, sometimes the champion is stronger than the challenger and sometimes their level is not quite different. The question is: what implications should this have on the system in your opinion?

Your proposal is not guaranteed to work, see Kasparov-Karpov 1984. I do not say that now is more needed to have a limit than before, but we need a limit. Having the players to play the match for half a year is beyond the reasonable purposes of a match. And that's what happened in Karpov-Kasparov 1984.

If chess960 would be introduced, then its theory would be developed as well. Supercomputers can analyze chess960 as well, nothing will prevent GMs from memorizing ideas. Yes, memorizing opening lines for 960 starting positions might be beyond the capabilities of the human brain, but if that's not possible, they will memorize patterns and ideas.

Why drawn matches indicate that there are problems with chess? What is the problem with the game? If you introduce chess960, would it make drawn matches impossible? I doubt it.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/23/2018 03:10
@ cepfan :

In my opinion, Werner Keym's proposal isn't significantly better than the present system : a tie is still solved by Rapid and Blitz games (to place them before is mostly only a question of calendar...), which isn't logical at all, as Rapid and Blitz World Championships also exist.

Or else, it would be necessary to split this title in two : a real "classical time controls" World Championship, and a combined World Championship with an equal representation of Classical, Rapid and Blitz games.

Taken together, the whole of the three present World Championships, with this Classical World Championship featuring mostly classical time controls, but sprinkled with bits of Rapid and Blitz, is not very coherent...

As for your second proposal, it suits me quite well ; I would only prefer to give the choice to the Challenger between an extra White or an extra Black ; as it is supposed to give him a small advantage to compensate partially the "draw odds to the Champion" rule, I think it would be more logical to let him chose what he prefers...
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 9/23/2018 02:58
2)

A lot of proposals give one side an advantage, either by having an extra white, being able to get the white pieces first, or something else. Why the need for it at all? Have a match with exactly the same conditions for both players, and let the best player win. Eg, as I proposed early in this thread, a match of unlimited classical games with first to x wins, winning by a margin of y.
The idea that we need a fixed number of games today more than in the past is silly; insurance markets are much more developed now. A long match would create tremendous excitement.
@Jacob woge just made the same suggestion

I am not sure I understand @Bruce Harper's suggestion regarding 1/3, 2/3 points - it sounds to me that players are playing for the first decisive result, and the score for that day will be 1-0 or 0-1, no limit on the number of games? So the 1/3, 2/3 points is not relevant? Very interesting suggestion, would love to see a tournament with that format. It would have the effect of fundamentally change the nature of chess by making time management become much more important.

@BKnight2003, I think your idea is acceptable, but only if draw odds are combined with bidding for time, so that it is fair to both players.

@Petrarlsen, in chess960 it is impossible to "kill as quickly as possible any tactical possibilities, and going as fast as possible in the direction of a drawn position". The positions are just too rich and there are too many possibilities. Imagine how someone in the classical starting position would try to force a draw 300 years ago before the French, Berlin, Queen's gambit, sicilian even existed. Openings that are known to produce draws today were not known that they could produce them 100 years ago, and openings like the Giucio Piano 100 years ago that were thought to lead to draws are what players are using now to fight for an advantage. But with no opening knowledge it is very easy to make a large error that gives the opponent an opportunity too good to refuse.
It is not correct that there has been nothing at stake for chess960, there were several world championships, there was the high stakes nakamura-Carlsen match, and the recent champion's showdown st. louis had a prize fund of $50,000 for EACH match.


Let's also be clear on one point. The fact that three 24-game matches were tied in the past, and that all this discussion is taking place, does not mean that there is something wrong with the system, or with the players, but indicates a problem with chess itself! So if a long match cannot produce a winner, something fundamental has to be changed; replace chess with FischerRandom, Harper's proposal, or something else.
fgkdjlkag fgkdjlkag 9/23/2018 02:58
my first double post
1)
I believe I agree in general with @BeFreeBusy, @rubinsteinak, and I think Petrarlsen who want longer matches.

Agree with @Petrarlsen that it does not make sense to use chess960 for a tiebreak, it would simply introduce too much randomness.

regarding
lajosarpad 9/20/2018 11:19
"@fgkdjlkag the previous opponent of the World Champion was an earlier World Champion, or at least the challenger. If the previous World Champion or the challenger was significantly weaker than the current challenger, then the current challenger has better chances, but nevertheless, we are speaking about the absolute best of the world, there should be no weaklings. If there are, then there is another problem with the system which needs to be fixed."

I do not think you understood my point. The logic people are using is that since the challenger always had to defeat the world champion, it would be fair to use that system now, because the current world champion was once the challenger, and was forced to defeat the previous world champion under the same conditions.

But the skill gap between #1 and #2 is very different in various historical time periods. Look at the difference between Fischer and Spassky vs. the difference between Carlsen and Caruana. If the skill gap between #1 and #2 is absent (which has been the case a couple times in history), then it does not mean much for the challenger to defeat the world champion, but if the skill gap is tremendous, then defeating the world champion is a very different accomplishment. So forcing the challenger to defeat the world champion creates vagaries dependent on the time period.
cepfan cepfan 9/23/2018 10:12
The score 3:1 may be interesting in a tournement, but not in the championship match.

I think that these two simple procedures work well:

1) Keym's proposal (with a prologue)
2) Keym's proposal without a prologue:
Odd number of classical games.
The challenger begins and ends as white.
In case of tie the reigning champion keeps his title.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/23/2018 05:56
@ jsaldea12 :

"As I said this proposed new scoring system can be applied to world chess championship (...)"

You are certainly not overtiring yourself by answering to objections ; everyone says to you that what you say is absurd (in particular, mathematically absurd...), and you simply continue to repeat over and over the exact same nonsense ! You could at least TRY to refute the objections, but no ! You prefer to continue to state that 2 + 2 = 5 and that the white cat is in fact a black dog !... (Or perhaps a pink elephant ?!? Who knows ?...)

You would probably not succeed in earning anything else, but the price for perseverance is for you at 100 % !...
jsaldea12 jsaldea12 9/23/2018 03:09
Continuity: Why the proposed chess scoring system of 3 points for win and 1 point for draw is best answer to “draw problem”, said draw problem is brought to Arkady Dvorkovich, Candidate for President of FIDE. Finally the cat is out: “draw problem” is real. Why such proposed scoring system will reduce “draw problem? Because as stated the ratio difference is big: 3 to 1. compared to present outmoded scoring system of 1 win to .5 draw” Because of that big ratio difference, THE TENDENCY OF CHESS PLAYER IS TO PLAY FOR WIN RATHER THAN DRAW., MAKE THEM MORE COMBATANT, AGGRESSIVE, ORIGINAL, NOT COMPLACID, NOT CONTENTED WITH BORING DRAW. The problem would to how to orient, circulate to the chess players of this new scoring system that is simple and easy understand. As I said this proposed new scoring system can be applied to world chess championship or other tournaments or recreational chess.
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/23/2018 02:43
@ BKnight2003 :

Your solution is very close to a 13 games match with one more game with White for the Challenger, and the "draw odds to the Champion" rule, the slight difference being that, with your system, after 12 games, if a player is leading, he will be awarded the title, and the 13th game will not be played.

As for me - very slight difference - I would prefer to give the Challenger the choice between an extra White game and an extra Black game : I am nearly sure the Challenger will choose an extra White game, but it seems more logical to give him the choice (for example, if he has some serious problems with his White repertoire, it could perhaps be something negative for him to have an extra White game - this would be quite paradoxical...).

Globally, your system would quite suit me ; the interest of my system would nonetheless be that, as the importance of the "draw odds to the Champion" rule is much reduced in it, it could more easily satisfy those who don't like very much the "draw odds to the Champion" rule...
Petrarlsen Petrarlsen 9/22/2018 11:19
@ Jacob woge :

"(...) If one would have a 3-1-0 scoring system in a chess match, I think it might work using a combination of a fixed target and an unfixed number of games (...)"

Yes, it works ; in fact, lajosarpad explained the exact same system previously under this same article. I suppose that, as he explained it rather differently from you, you didn't realize it was the same system...

But the objective is not at all the same that when this 3 - 1 scoring system is implemented in a tournament ; in the system you and lajosarpad exposed, it is rather some sort of a mitigated "draws not counting" system ("à la Karpov - Kasparov 1984", for example) ; it is not meant to give an extra motivation to the players for them to win games...