Leading chess players of Russia appeal to Putin for peace and ceasefire

by ChessBase
3/3/2022 – In an appeal to Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia, a large number of prominent Russian chess players call for a ceasefire and peace in Ukraine. "It is unbearably painful for us to see the catastrophe that is happening these days to our peoples." The courageous appeal appeared on the Russian sports site "Championat".
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Russia's leading chess players have made an official appeal to Russian President Vladimir Putin

"We oppose military action on the territory of Ukraine and call for an early ceasefire and a peaceful resolution of the conflict through dialogue and diplomatic negotiations. It pains us unbearably to see the catastrophe that is happening to our peoples these days.

We have always stood for Russia in individual and, with particular pride, in team competitions. We are sure that chess, just like sport in general, should unite people. The most difficult and prestigious international tournaments were held in our country at the highest level even at the height of the pandemic.

Chess teaches responsibility for one's actions; every step matters, and a mistake can lead to a fatal point of no return. And if it has always been about sport, now it is about people's lives, basic rights and freedoms, human dignity, the present and future of our countries that are at stake.

In these tragic days, our thoughts are with all the people caught in the middle of this terrible conflict. We share the pain with our Ukrainian colleagues and call for peace.

The Ukrainian chess team is the reigning European champion and one of the best teams in the world alongside ours. We have played dozens of matches and hundreds of games. We have always put competitive sport above politics, and Ukrainians reciprocate in our favour. We ask you to give teams, players and common people from both countries a chance for mutual respect.

We are for peace. Stop the war!"

The appeal was signed by:

Ian Nepomniachtchi, Alexandra Kosteniuk, Daniil Dubov, Pyotr Svidler, Andrey Esipenko, Maxim Matlakov, Kirill Alekseenko, Alexander Motylev, Mikhail Kobalia, Evgeny Naer, Pavel Tregubov, Alexander Khalifman, Polina Shuvalova, Igor Lysyi, Dmitry Kryakvin, Vladimir Barsky, Mark Glukhovsky , Maxim Notkin, Maxim Chigaev, Anastasia Chigaeva, Olga Badelko, Pavel Ponkratov, Alexander Shimanov, Daniil Yuffa, Konstantin Mesropov, Svetlana Ershova, Evgeny Egorov, Anna Volkova, Eteri Kublashvili, Yana Sidorchuk, Anna Burtasova, Denis Grigoriev, Ilya Gorodetsky, Oleg Pervakov.

Link

Source: championat.com...

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arzi arzi 3/14/2022 12:04
Lajosarpad:"I don't know why you oppose the exposing logical fallacies, nor do I care. Arguing for not exposing logical fallacies makes the impression that you intend to use logical fallacies. You have just proven this to be true with your last comment, which contains fallacies without arguments."

Your use of computer language and digital fundamentals of logical ports in a human conversation is ....illogical, as Spock would say. It doesn´t work. Human language does not work according to logical gates and combinations of 1 and 0 alone. If you try to reconcile them you may find yourself in logical dead ends, impossibilities, as if trying to divide a number or equation by zero. Sometimes it’s easier to define the world around you in mathematical language, and sometimes a few words in human language say more than any existing programming language can ever do. Don´t try to use the language of digital logical ports in our conversations. Honest and dishonest. 1 and 0. Human language and people themselves work in values 1.0, 0.9, 0.8 .... 0.1, 0.0. One´s truth is other´s false.
arzi arzi 3/14/2022 09:17
Lajosarpad:"I therefore end my participation in this discussion unless someone has real arguments that, instead of my person deals with the topic. Until then, have fun filling this comment section with trash."

Not again? Without you there is no trash and a basket to fill. The eternal loop of the programmer.
arzi arzi 3/14/2022 09:08
Lajosarpad:"The expectation that people should not act dishonestly is a valid expectation that everyone who cares about the quality of a discourse agrees. Instead of agreeing, you seem to disagree, maybe for the sake of disagreeing, but, if you genuinely disagree, that's even worse. We should expect people to be honest, independently of what my area of expertise is or what faults my person may have."

Yes, it seems to be that you are making the rules. "but, if you genuinely disagree, that's even worse". Don´t you really see that? You are telling me that you, Lajosarpad, are honest and acts honestly and if I, arzi, do not agree with you it is even worse, dishonest behavior. These things have not happened only between us but between you and other writers. Either you are blind to your own actions or dishonest for yourself. You called me often dishonest in our covid-conversations. By the way, how is now your covid world in the shadow of the Ukrainian war? Has the covid died because of the war? How does your media in Hungary write about covid? None? No surprises there. Three years were enough of it and new news are needed. Covid has totally died in our media, in Finland.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/12/2022 12:00
@arzi The topic was that Russian players signed an appeal for a ceasefire. It seems that you no longer have to say anything about the topic. By the way, I think we both support the Russian chess players who oppose the war, so, we probably agree about the actual topic.

I don't know why you oppose the exposing logical fallacies, nor do I care. Arguing for not exposing logical fallacies makes the impression that you intend to use logical fallacies. You have just proven this to be true with your last comment, which contains fallacies without arguments.

The expectation that people should not act dishonestly is a valid expectation that everyone who cares about the quality of a discourse agrees. Instead of agreeing, you seem to disagree, maybe for the sake of disagreeing, but, if you genuinely disagree, that's even worse. We should expect people to be honest, independently of what my area of expertise is or what faults my person may have.

You threw in a few ad hominems here in attempt to discredit my person, but I think anyone can see through your hollow comment. I do not wish to debate for valid arguments and I do not wish to deal with the non sequitur red herrings you are bringing up. I therefore end my participation in this discussion unless someone has real arguments that, instead of my person deals with the topic. Until then, have fun filling this comment section with trash.
arzi arzi 3/11/2022 01:56
Lajosarpad: "...Don't act dishonestly..."

Yes, you are the most honest human being ever lived. You make the rules for all of us. Surely you are a programmer of the world. Logical programmer. All the digital fundamentals of the basic ports you can handle with great accuracy. You use those criteria in human language and in communicating with people as well. Zeros and ones, no other values, not any analogy signals but digital ones. Unfortunately, the future AI doesn´t function just with those two numbers or combinations of them. Something new is needed. You think you know more about me than you do about yourself, because you are using the old technology in the wrong place and with the tool that is not working.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/11/2022 01:13
Logical fallacies are well-known patterns of bad argumentation. Everyone should aim to make their case (of whatever opinion) properly. These are not my standards. These are generally accepted standards. I do not claim that I have risen above everyone. Not at all. I might also make mistakes while making my case. I might be wrong about many things. Yet, to put it bluntly, my approach to discussions is evidently superior to yours, since I at least try to avoid logical fallacies and expose them when I see them, while you argue against exposing logical fallacies.

Honest participants of a discussion do not try to work around the argumentation by discrediting the persons they disagree with. Honest participants believe they are closer to the truth with their opinion than the other side and have no issue with hearing out opinions they disagree with and responding to the precise arguments of the other sides.

I really do not understand why you argue against exposing fallacies.

The standards I adhere to are: Don't use fallacies. Don't act dishonestly.

These are not "my" standards and they do not make me "holy". The sarcasm that you use here is an attempt to discredit me because I say that people should try to make their case properly, avoiding fallacies. Don't you see how badly you appear while you are doing that? If you argue against the fact that I say that fallacies should be exposed, then people might think that you want to use fallacies and you are bothered by your fallacies being exposed. Your position is a self-defeating position.
arzi arzi 3/10/2022 02:06
To lajosarpad:" Why should I stop exposing logical fallacies? Don't use bad arguments and then there will be nothing to be exposed. Simple..."

When you make your own standards you will rise above us all, to your own holy loneliness. Yes, simple.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/10/2022 11:53
@arzi Why should I stop exposing logical fallacies? Don't use bad arguments and then there will be nothing to be exposed. Simple. Also, I did not know that I'm not allowed to address you if you have not addressed me. If we take this principle seriously, then in all comment threads where at least one person addressed the other, the very first addressing is violating this. Surely you do not apply this principle consistently.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/10/2022 11:53
@rokko Since you have found my earlier comments denouncing the Russian aggression, I think we can conclude that I never was Putin's fan boy. I'm being critical to Ukraine while denouncing Russia. For future visitors who would for some reason reach to your earlier conclusion, I have collected a few things written by me in this thread that disprove such an assumption:

- "That's a great initiative! Kudos to the brave Russian chess players who are willing to take the risk of openly criticizing this war. "
- "Also, even though Karjakin's support of this war is reprehensible [...]"
- "As about Ukraine, I support their effort in self-defense, even though their policies that banned the opposition and brutally oppressed minorities prevent me from being a fan of that country. However, the Ukrainian people fighting heorically to protect their country is admirable. They are not responsible for the many misdeeds of their country."
- "Russia attacked a sovereign nation."
- "There is a bad and an even worse side."
- "while I agree with you that the Russian aggression is reprehensible and even the protection of minorities as an idea does not legitimize such a war, [...]"
- "I strongly disagree with what Putin and Russia did"
- "I absolutely denounce the Russian attack"
- "I agree with you that the war is terrible and that Putin started it."
- "So, we agree about denouncing the Russian invasion. The difference between our positions seems to be that I denounce Russia's and Ukraine's misdeeds, while you seem to denounce Russia's misdeeds and ignore Ukraine's misdeeds."
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/10/2022 11:53
@rokko the situation of the minorities in Ukraine is relevant to the topic, because the current trend is to (rightly) denounce the Russian aggression and to (wrongly) ignore the wrongdoings of Ukraine. For instance, I do agree that Ukraine needs help, but I also argue that Ukraine should change its policies towards minorities and it should stop behaving in its current chauvinistic ways in order to deserve help. For instance it wants to be admitted to the EU. Why is it difficult for the EU to raise the condition that minority rights should be respected? It is now the moment when we can actually do something about the plight of minorities, as Ukraine would surely accept such a condition in its current dire situation. If we postpone this topic now for later, then things will be as they always were: nothing (good) happens. I share your view that Russia's invasion is terrible, but Ukraine is a terrible country. My point is that 1. we should help Ukraine 2. we should force Ukraine to behave in a civilized manner towards its minorities. And I absolutely do not understand why the rights of minorities is completely ignored here by many. Ukraine is a failed state indeed, it needs large changes to become a successful state. Yet, the current war is not helping. I find it unacceptable that minority languages are severely restricted. And that's not changed by the fact that Ukraine is under attack. It asks for help and rightly so. But I would like to ensure that once this mess is over, the life of minorities will be better there.
arzi arzi 3/9/2022 12:26
To Lajosarpad : Thousands of words to me even though I have not answered to you. I did not read your comments because I`m too tired to read through long conversations, which are not relating to the subject of my interest. I saw a sentence from rokko. Thanks for long explaining. The failed state -argument is just your opinion, nothing more nothing less.

Lajosarpad:"You have been wondering about straw man arguments in another thread."
No, I have not been wondering but stating the fact. Rephrase your argument, invent something new for a change.
rokko rokko 3/9/2022 11:38
@lajosarpad - I finally found your earlier comments (long thread) which show that you are not one of the fan boys. Anyway, I did not call you a fanboy but the "failed state" debated a fan boy argument.
rokko rokko 3/9/2022 11:32
@lajosarpad
All these arguments about failed states and Ukraine's behaviour in the separatist provinces are not relevant in the current war situation. Ukraine is certainly not perfect and the transition from a Soviet-dominated socialist republic to a perfect state takes time, especially when you have a big neighbour in the East who annexes portions of your country and fuels violence by separatist militia. It is not a failed state. And anyway, all this is completely irrelevant in the current war. Putin wants to dominated his neighbours (invasion in Georgia, Russian troops in Kazakhstan etc.) and all means are good for him. So one side is definitely "bad".
As for the "fan boy" I did not read any comments you may have made in other threads. In this thread you only criticised Ukraine with the same arguments Russia and the Putin fan boys use. If you are not a Putin fan boy that is good. But it is not the right moment to shout with the wolves.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/9/2022 10:43
@arzi So, if Rokko disagrees with my point according to which Ukraine is a failed state, then Rokko could have argued honestly, with proper arguments, showing us how well functioning Ukraine is. But Rokko chose not to provide valid arguments for his/her position, which apparently is that Ukraine is not a failed state. Instead, he/she uses dishonest means in this discussion, trying to discredit me, misrepresenting my position. From the above, fallacy 2 could be an honest mistake, because it's quite common that people assume that when two sides are having a conflict, a side is "good" and another is "bad". However, since Rokko has read earlier comments, Rokko surely knows that I'm not a fan of Putin and Rokko also knows that I do not support the invasion. So, Rokko is being dishonest.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/9/2022 10:42
@arzi You have been wondering about straw man arguments in another thread. Rokko's short comment is an excellent example of fallacious argumentation:

1. Rokko indicates that I'm a Putin fan. Yet, Rokko has seen my earlier comments from which it was obvious that I'm not. So, Rokko knows that I'm not a fan of Putin, yet, he says the contrary. This is a fallacy called poisoning the well, which consists in trying to demonize the debate opponent, so his/her arguments would be rejected regardless of their content. This is a dishonest way of participating in a debate

2. Rokko shows us that Russia is a failed state as well, which, according to Rokko means that my argument is a failure. So, if Russia is a failed state, does it mean that Ukraine is a successful state? No, not at all. Ukraine will not become an excellent state by the sheer fact that Russia is a failed state as well. So, Rokko used here a logical fallacy, called the false dichotomy, that is, we need to "choose" which the failed state is. Yet, the two states are both failed, so Russia being a failure does not disprove the fact that Ukraine is also a failure.

3. Rokko tries to make the impression that I support the invasion of Ukraine, even though I was very clear that I'm against this war. Since this is a misrepresentation, it is a straw man argument and since it is also a personal attack, it's an ad hominem as well.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/9/2022 10:42
@rokko since in this discussion I have made the claim that Ukraine is a failed state and you called the claimer a "Putin fan boy" it is easy to know that according to you I'm a fan of Putin. Never mind the facts that I called him a warmonger and I have been consistently criticizing the war. Don't be bothered by the fact that your statement is obviously false. Also, Russia is a failed state as well. But the sheer fact that Russia is also a failed state does not mean that Ukraine is not. They are both failed states. A failed state attacked another. Also, I have never said that state failure would legitimize attacking it. So I agree with you that even a failed state should not be invaded. Too bad that you have tried to make others believe that I said the contrary. Yes, Ukraine (and not its government) needs support, but it would be a mistake to assume that it's a model state. It's a very bad place to live in (500 000 people left it yearly by average), especially if you are a minority.

@arzi I do not understand why you have difficulties understanding what a failed state is, since the definition was given in a comment I have earlier written. The reason a state is existing is to provide some services for its citizens. If the given state repeatedly fails to provide the services it should be obliged to provide, then it's a failed state. So, when we look at a state in order to determine whether it's a success or a failure, then we need to view human rights, the infrastructure, the healthcare, the schooling, the emigration, the criminal rate, the success of the law enforcement in the prevention of crimes and in catching criminals, the corruption. Looking at all these it is obvious to me that Ukraine is a failed state.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/9/2022 10:42
@Quanber: "It is also blindfolded accepting that all the violence in Donbass ect are not staged by Putin. I disagree, as I know Putin."

Donbass has a Russian majority. If there was a democratic decision of the region about where it should belong, then it would vote to be annected to Russia. Ukraine wants to prevent such a democratic decision in view that it would seriously violate its territorial integrity. So, Ukraine fought with its dissenting Russian minority. Putin surely has responsibility there as well, but a country waging war against its own citizens is terrible. Let me put this into perspective: it is terrible to see how many civilians are killed by the Russian invasion. Yet, these people are not Russian citizens, so Ukraine's war against its own citizens is even worse. How could have ended Ukraine the conflict at the Donbass peacefully? By providing autonomy to the Donbass, so the people there would have self-determination, while the region would stay in the country. That would have been a safe way of removing the conflict and attempting to preserve territorial integrity. Instead, Ukraine decided to wage war against those people. I find that terrible. And it seems that you ignore this fact. I find the Russian invasion terrible as well. So, we agree about denouncing the Russian invasion. The difference between our positions seems to be that I denounce Russia's and Ukraine's misdeeds, while you seem to denounce Russia's misdeeds and ignore Ukraine's misdeeds.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/9/2022 10:41
@Quanber "And then lajosarpad wants me to discuss the difference between the word state and nation."

When did I want to discuss that with you? You have misquoted me and I exposed your mistake. It was you, who falsely claimed that I was speaking about "failed nations". You could have avoided that by paying attention to be precise when you quote someone. And you could also acknowledge that you were misquoting me. But, instead you depict the horrors of the invasion. Yet, the invasion, however terrible it is will not magically convert Ukraine into a successful state and will not magically legitimize the fact that you have misquoted me. I agree with you that the war is terrible and that Putin started it. But I would advise everyone to acknowledge that Ukraine is not a model state. For example, Alexandru27 acknowledged that, yet he supports Ukraine in these dire times. Which is a respectable position in my opinion.
arzi arzi 3/9/2022 06:40
To rokko."even a failed state should not invaded"

Yes, I agree you, any "failed state" should not be invaded by any other country. I have some difficulties to even comprehend the sentence, "failed state". What is it? Is the failed state the country which has lost the world championship, in the last game, in ice hockey?
rokko rokko 3/8/2022 09:52
Just looking at this strange "failed state" index - Russia at 75 and Ukraine at 71 are at the same level. Just another failed argument by the Putin fan boys.
And even a "failed state" should not be invaded.
Quanber Quanber 3/8/2022 01:45
Russia's demand to end its violent aggression on Ukraine tells more than anything else about the madness that has spread in the isolated KGB time pocket Putin has created in the Kremlin . We are back to 1950.

01) Russia will allow Volodymyr Zelensky to remain in office if Russia can appoint Ukraine's prime minister !
02 ) Ukraine must rewrite the country's constitution so that it explicitly states that Ukraine does not want membership of NATO and the EU
03) Donetsk and Luhansk are recognized as independent republics.
04) Crimea is recognized as Russian territory

I would recommend Ukraine to make the following counterclaims:

01) Ukraine will accept that Vladimir Putin will not be shot at dawn in exchange for appearing before the war crimes tribunal in The Hague together with the entire corrupt inner circle .
02) Russia must write in its constitution that it refrains from having a military, including nuclear weapons.
03) Donetsk and Luhansk remain Ukrainian territory until Ukraine vote otherwise
04) Crimea remain Ukrainian territory until Ukraine vote otherwise

Millions of innocent citizens are on the run and being bombed. And then lajosarpad wants me to discuss the difference between the word state and nation. With all respect, I dont have the time, people are dying. States in which the overwhelming majority of people belong to one nation are known as nation-states. That is good enough for me. I did not mean to offend any individuals, but your notes is not just about this. It is also blindfolded accepting that all the violence in Donbass ect are not staged by Putin. I disagree, as I know Putin.
arzi arzi 3/8/2022 11:24
To JanneKejo: Yes, and I already told that you belong below 1% group of Finns. Happy? Why don´t you quote some sayings from your real heros? Sayings from dictators of Northern Korea? We all are agreed that those guys from Northern Korea are the top guys, like superheros. SuperFinns? I doubt that but anyway, superhumans.
JanneKejo JanneKejo 3/8/2022 09:23
"JanneKejo does not represent the opinion of Finns."

I am a Finn and represent myself. Does that count? I find it important to mention the viewpoints that are not mentioned by "everyone else". If "all the world" agreed with me on the various topics, I would not bother to say anything; there would be no need for that.
arzi arzi 3/8/2022 08:27
To lajosarpad/Quanber. I´m a Finn. I have already lived in the days of President Kekkonen and Secretary-General Brezhnev. I have watched the TV -news from Prague 1968 of occupation of Czechoslovakia, the collapse of the Soviet Union, etc. I have been in army like most of us Finns. Nowadays also women can go to army in Finland, voluntarily. As long as I can remember, the majority of Finns have been against NATO. Why? Because already since the time of Soviet Union we Finns have understood that our neighbor in the east is there to stay. The best way to protect ourself is to own a strong army. No one else is going to help us if the bear of east will attack us. No one. The fact. After the break-up of the Soviet Union, we Finns thought that we could finally start trusting Russia when their society become democratic. No more Tsars or any other dictators. Boy, we were wrong. Putin came.
Now, we still have quite a strong army but we are coming to the conclusion that it might be not enough. We need something more. Is it Nato? Is it some kind of alliance of the military EU? The Nordic Coalition? I don´t know, but I do know that if I have to vote either for Nato or against Nato I would properly choose, for Nato.

JanneKejo does not represent the opinion of Finns. How could he, he is a man who will fan dictators of Northern Korea. He may represent below 1% of Finns, maybe even not so much. You don´t have to believe me. Read about us.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/8/2022 02:25
@Quanber Here people are discussing whether Ukraine is a failed state years before the current war: https://www.quora.com/Is-Ukraine-becoming-a-failed-state

If you consider my opinion to be horrible, while I would not be particularly happy about it, I will accept it without accusing you of being an agent, the devil or anything of the like. I would never try to dehumanize you.

"Therefore, I have logically concluded that the account is managed by the FSB. He denies it, and so I can just conclude tha lajosarps comments about Ukraine is only look a like FSB. Horrible stuff."

Well, since my account is managed by my person and I have nothing to do with the FSB, of course I deny your absolutely baseless claim about the FSB. I have also asked you for your real name, so I would know who you are. I am Lajos Árpád, you can Google for my name and you will see that I am a real person. To help you I specify that I'm a mathematician and a programmer. Of course, you will only find me if you manage to write down my name properly, something you failed to do in the quote above. I cannot google you, since you hide behind your nickname. But I am genuinely interested to know who is the person that accuses others of being FSB agents on Chessbase. Of course, only if you are willing to take some responsibility for what you have said here.

I would also like to point out that your position is self-defeating if you keep accusing and insulting the people you are disagreeing with. But this is your problem.
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/8/2022 01:24
Quanber: If I'm not mistaken I called Ukraine a failed state, but I would welcome if you would provide the link where I have used the term "failed nation". I doubt it exists. I would not call the Ukrainian nation (or any nation) a failed nation, since I would not view a group of people being "failed", but a state can be a failure. You are misquoting me for a second time about this. It seems that you do not understand the concept. Take a look at the definition, it might clarify my point to you: https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-a-failed-state-definition-and-examples-5072546

As about Ukraine being a failed state, well, if you look at the definition, you will see that this is a hard fact. You can see that Ukraine has a 71 at the fragile state index ranking: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/failed-states

It is difficult to see what exactly Ukraine has been successful it. It failed economically, it failed in healthcare, it failed properly handling its minorities. I absolutely denounce the Russian attack, but, on the other hand, Ukraine is indeed a failed state. This is a factual claim.

"Just as he in a streak of undocumented claims makes the parties to the conflict just as good about it."

I have already asked you once: provide an example of an undocumented claim that I said according to you. If you fail to do so - and you failed to do so so far -, then your claim above is... Undocumented.
Quanber Quanber 3/8/2022 12:42
On December 1, 1991, 90% of Ukraine's population voted for independence from the USSR.
After that, for many years, there were no conflicts with the neighbor to the east. That changed when Putin became president in 2000. He certainly did not care about the dissolution of the Soviet Union, including Ukraine's independence.
When Russia lost control of the Kiev regime around 2014, Putin began systematically destabilizing the Crimean and Donbas territories through misinformation, mercenaries, regular troops, and military support for separatists. He transferred his training from the KGB and created terrorist acts that could be used to legitimize abuse and control.

World history is full of examples of poorly gifted people with sufficient ruthlessness reaching the pinnacle of power. But also that their poor giftedness in combination with the absolute power inevitably leads to the madness of greatness taking over.
The invasion of Ukraine becomes Putin's final. In the midst of all the tragedy, in the midst of all the terrible violence against innocent people, it is a consolation that the world has woken up. The confidence that we can trust Russia with him as leader is completely gone. Putin has painted himself into a corner as a war criminal, and that stamp will be his trademark in the history books.
Quanber Quanber 3/8/2022 12:39
It is gratifying that Finland and Sweden are now on their way to becoming members of NATO, and will not have to be defended by JanneKejo. Every time he is confronted with his own lack of logic, he responds with a contentless swine of the critic. Like a spoiled child or an FSB lap dog. Irony is the main weapon of cowards and JanneKejo has nothing else.
JanneKejo JanneKejo 3/7/2022 08:51
@Quanber
If there were a ELO for political argumentation, I guess yours would be about 1300. But never mind; there isn't.
JanneKejo JanneKejo 3/7/2022 08:32
@lajosarpad

"I think it should be clear that if Russia attacks Ukraine, then Finland will try to increase its protection against such an invasion."

Of course. And as we can learn from Ukraine, the worst thing Finland could do, is to try to become a member of Nato.
Alexandru27 Alexandru27 3/7/2022 03:56
As of now, I think he's willing to go all the way and complete what he said he wants. Regardless of the humanitarian costs and the distruction provoked in Ukraine, and the suffering of Russian people and the economy because of the sanctions. Will something change his mind up to that point? This, I don't know.
Quanber Quanber 3/7/2022 03:45
lajosarpad, has stated in note after note that Ukraine is a "failed nation" and I have only heard this horrible claim made by the Russian intelligence service. Just as he in a streak of undocumented claims makes the parties to the conflict just as good about it. It's also absolutely horrible. Therefore, I have logically concluded that the account is managed by the FSB. He denies it, and so I can just conclude tha lajosarps comments about Ukraine is only look a like FSB. Horrible stuff.
Quanber Quanber 3/7/2022 03:10
The Russians must not be told the truth about the war against Ukraine. It gives after a new decree 15 years in prison to tell them that 12,000 of their dear young people are coming home in coffins because of Putin's folly.
But JanneKejo says he is from Finland, so he must know the truth. In both Finland and Sweden, there is now a majority for NATO membership: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10572805/Most-people-Sweden-Finland-want-join-NATO-war-broke-Ukraine.html
JanneKejo says Russia has the right to invade Ukraine because they feel threatened by a possible enlargement of NATO. I then asked the logical question to JanneKejo whether Finland had the right to invade Russia if they felt threatened by something. Then JanneKejo answers, well they do not feel threatened!

It's completely idiotic. Like talking to a door. The question was elementary whether a country A can invade a country B if they feel threatened, without the country B having the same right to invade country A if they conversely feel threatened. JanneKejo can not answer that, because he thereby tears the mask off himself.
arzi arzi 3/7/2022 02:42
To lajosarpad/Quanber/Alexandru27 Unfortunately, no country can go to help Ukraine, with armed by guns. It will end with a very big bang, everywhere. The only way to resolve this is for the Ukrainians tough defense, which will be too costly for Russia. Good and cheap weapons against costly Russian tanks, fighters, helicopters, like in Afghanistan. The problem with this tactic is Putin himself. How far he is willing to go? Will he destroy everything and everybody, no matter what happens? Will he also destroy Russia?
lajosarpad lajosarpad 3/7/2022 01:30
@Alexandru27 I agree that Ukrainians need help, especially the refugees. But there is no way that I would ever put aside the atrocities of the current Ukrainian government.

@Quanber while I agree with you that the Russian aggression is reprehensible and even the protection of minorities as an idea does not legitimize such a war, I do point out that Ukraine waged war with its Russian minority for 8 years. Things are not black & white and in this conflict, even though I strongly disagree with what Putin and Russia did, I do see the grave faults of the Ukrainian government.

01) No

02) No

03) The truth is that if one plans to plant nukes close to a border with a superpower in order to threaten it, then that move creates tension. This is why the Cuban missile crisis almost caused a world war in the 60'ies. I agree with you that if the no fly zone would be established over Ukraine, that would be a big step towards a world war.

You accuse me for being an FSB agent. Since I factually know that this is a false accusation, I would like to point out that your accusation is a baseless one, attacking the dignity of a person. You surely display a horrible conduct. I would also like to know what statement did I make that's undocumented? My name is Lajos Árpád. May I know your real name?

@JanneKejo I think it should be clear that if Russia attacks Ukraine, then Finland will try to increase its protection against such an invasion.
arzi arzi 3/7/2022 11:35
To JanneKejo: "First, most Finns don't feel threatened by Russia at all."

Either you are lying or you have spent all your waking time in a dark room at home. I`m a Finn too. Have you got your information from Northern Korea? Everywhere I have talked about this war, Russians leaders are not the trusted one. The outbreak of this war in Ukraine in particular has changed the attitude of Finns. It has changed so much during the week that more than 53% of the respondents to the NATO survey were in favor of joining NATO. Of course you can say that was a fake survey because you weren`t there to witness the survey.

JanneKejo, a man who likes to quate Northern Korea`s headmasters: "Even Kim Il Sung has said that a person must become a decent nationalist before he can become a decent communist." What about Kim Jong-Un? Have you got any good sayings from him? Laughing is forbidden!
JanneKejo JanneKejo 3/7/2022 08:03
@Quanber
"So now that Finland feels threatened by Russia, can Finland legitimately roll into Russia with tanks and bomb the cities?"

First, most Finns don't feel threatened by Russia at all. The mainstream media is controlled by the Nato-trolls and their goal is to make Finland a Nato member at whatever cost. Differing opinions are censored in the mainstream media discussion threads. So, one should not believe everything one reads in the media. The people's initiative to seek Nato membership was signed by approximately 1% of the population. That doesn't sound like a majority to me.

Second, what is legitimate and what in reasonable and what is understandable are three different things. A chess player should understand the importance of objectivity when evaluating the position on the board and the moves that have lead to the position. Ignoring Russia's viewpoint about the Ukraine crisis is not helpful. On the contrary, it makes it more difficult to find the best move in the given situation.
arzi arzi 3/7/2022 06:57
To Quanber:"The idea that Putin is seeking to protect minorities in Ukraine with his invasion is completely ridiculous. Putin has never ever worried about minorities in Russia."

That is a similar excuse as the Soviet Union did to Finland. They fired guns in Mainila and accused Finland of starting the war. To protect citizens in Leningrad, near the Soviet Union and Finland border, they decided to declare a war on Finland. This is why the people should read more about real history than some "news".
Quanber Quanber 3/6/2022 09:03
If a nation is militarily pushed into a corner then the nation is under attack on its own land by foreign forces. Ukrainians are under military pressure from Russia, and not the other way around. But I can understand from JanneKejo that one may well attack first if one feels threatened by another nation? So now that Finland feels threatened by Russia, can Finland legitimately roll into Russia with tanks and bomb the cities?
There is only one reason why former Soviet republics are applying for membership of NATO, and that is that they fear an attack from Russia. A fear that is extremely well-founded, as we see in these hours and minutes. What Putin has gained from his attack on Ukraine is that Finland and Moldova consider to be admitted to NATO. Like Sweden for the first time airs the thougt. Your understanding of Putin's motives is not present. So here are some simple questions to JanneKejo:
01) Had Hungary pushed the U.S.S.R up a military corner, so the U.S.S.R saw itself forced to attack Hungary militarily in 1956?
02) Had Czechoslovakia pushed the U.S.S.R up a military corner, so the U.S.S.R saw itself forced to attack Czechoslovakia militarily in 1968?
03) How can NATO push Russia into a corner? Russia's area is 17 million square kilometers, and have same nuclear power as NATO. It is absurd. NATO's rejection of a no fly zone is, of course, not fear of Russia's military, but merely an attempt to avoid an escalation.

Initially, the lajosarpad was subdued in its critique of Ukraine. That was when the invasion of Ukraine went well. Now he has become utterly raving and furious, firing streaks of undocumented allegations that UN observers have never described. The mask has fallen. The ugly image of the FSB has emerged.
Quanber Quanber 3/6/2022 06:06
The idea that Putin is seeking to protect minorities in Ukraine with his invasion is completely ridiculous. Putin has never ever worried about minorities in Russia. He does not even care about the majority in Russia. There is a majority of democratically minded Russians who want new winds. But electoral fraud is rampant and leaders are banished, imprisoned, poisoned, stabbed or shot.
The only thing Putin cares about is Putin. Anyone who dares to criticize him is persecuted. The reason he suddenly interfered in the US election in favor of Trump was solely that Hillary Clinton had criticized Putin's election as an expression of electoral fraud.
There were plenty of United Nations observers watching the situation in the southeastern provinces of Ukraine. Now they must also keep an eye on a whole new minority created by Putin, namely 4 million citizens on the run from the slaughterhouse.
In East Germany, Putin was a young spy with dreams of becoming the real Max Otto von Stierlitz. He was not only concerned with protecting the Soviet Union, but also with nurturing his image as a Russian version of James Bond. He had a romantic image of himself as the action hero who manages everything by brutal means. It was relatively harmless then, but deadly now that he has absolute power. Suddenly, he can no longer distinguish between Russia's interests and his own interests as an action hero.
He legitimizes all his lies and deceptions with regard to the interests of the fatherland. But they are not. It is not in the interest of the Russians to recreate the Soviet Union. It is in their interest to live in peace and tolerance with the surroundings.
141 nations diagree with G.R.U and JanneKejo. Coomen sense won.
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